Von Mises Institute reply to gun control

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Von Mises Institute reply to gun control

Post by g.willikers » Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:55 am

https://mises.org/blog/mistake-only-com ... -countries
The Von Mises Institute, a long established Libertarian source, had an excellent rebuttal to the world claims that we are of a high crime and murder country.
Lots of good stuff on the idea that gun control is of any benefit those who promote it are claiming.
It's definitely worth a thorough reading.
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Re: Von Mises Institute reply to gun control

Post by jjk308 » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:11 am

Better to compare the white murder rate in the USA to the EU nations. It's about average! The Latino rate is much higher, 2.5 times if I recall correctly. The African American murder rate is 8.7 times higher, even though they only have 40% of the firearms per capita as whites!

All those gun laws, some 22,000 of them, and gun control in general have to be the biggest failure of public policy since Prohibition.

It takes a lot of statistical trickery to show any positive effects, some of which is shown in the Von Mises article, such as ignoring all violence except gun violence, cherry picking locations and times (AKA p-hacking or data dredging) and selecting basic assumptions and methodology to get the desired results.

The following studies are definitive, showing how futile its all been. I hope someone will do a study showing how the threat of gun control and especially confiscation and bans, has led to over 320,000,000 firearms in America.

Brady Act Effectiveness: JOC91749.pdf at http://jama.jamanetwork.com

Evaluation of Firearms Laws https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2...

DOJ: Updated Assessment of the Federal Assault
Weapons Ban: 1994-2003
Christopher S. Koper
Document No.: 204431
Award Number: 98-IJ-CX-0039
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Re: Von Mises Institute reply to gun control

Post by Water Rat » Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:00 pm

All those gun laws, some 22,000 of them, and gun control in general have to be the biggest failure of public policy since Prohibition.
I think that honor goes to the war on drugs hands down.

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Re: Von Mises Institute reply to gun control

Post by jjk308 » Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:17 am

Water Rat wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:00 pm
All those gun laws, some 22,000 of them, and gun control in general have to be the biggest failure of public policy since Prohibition.
I think that honor goes to the war on drugs hands down.
Sorry, Rat, but last year only 9.4% of Americans used an "illicit drug" (mostly pot). Serious addictive drugs, maybe 1/3 to 1/2 of that.

At least 50% - can't tell exactly because we wont tell the truth to a telephone pollster - of Americans have guns. [smilie=011.gif]
I swear by Jupiter Optimus Maximus .... in the army of the consul Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus and for 10 miles around it I will not steal anything worth more than a sestertius in any one day.

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Re: Von Mises Institute reply to gun control

Post by Cardboard_killer » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:17 am

jjk308 wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:17 am
Sorry, Rat, but last year only 9.4% of Americans used an "illicit drug" (mostly pot). Serious addictive drugs, maybe 1/3 to 1/2 of that.

At least 50% - can't tell exactly because we wont tell the truth to a telephone pollster - of Americans have guns. [smilie=011.gif]
Are you suggesting that half of Americans have guns illegally? If not, then you are not making a good comparison. Compare the 9.4% to the number of illegal gun owners.
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Re: Von Mises Institute reply to gun control

Post by Cloaked Dagger » Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:12 pm

Cardboard_killer wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:17 am
jjk308 wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:17 am
Sorry, Rat, but last year only 9.4% of Americans used an "illicit drug" (mostly pot). Serious addictive drugs, maybe 1/3 to 1/2 of that.

At least 50% - can't tell exactly because we wont tell the truth to a telephone pollster - of Americans have guns. [smilie=011.gif]
Are you suggesting that half of Americans have guns illegally? If not, then you are not making a good comparison. Compare the 9.4% to the number of illegal gun owners.
Most people who choose not to use drugs usually make that decision based more on not wanting to become a drug addict verses it being illegal. If drugs were legalized tomorrow would you suddenly feel compelled to pick up a heroin habit?
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Re: Von Mises Institute reply to gun control

Post by jjk308 » Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:56 am

I'm a gun addict! And legal or illegal there are maybe 330,000,000 firearms in the USA by now!

Guns, you can give up at any time and choose or not to shoot someone with them. As for the war on drugs the current opioid epidemic is mostly the result of addicts getting started on LEGAL drugs. Physically addictive drugs are deadly, and IMHO a form of slavery.

More than 50,000 overdose deaths: A grim tally soars to all-time U.S. high
Heroin deaths rose 23 percent in one year, to 12,989, slightly higher than the number of gun homicides, according to government data released Thursday.
Deaths from synthetic opioids, including illicit fentanyl, rose 73 percent to 9,580. And prescription painkillers took the highest toll, but posted the smallest increase. Abuse of drugs like Oxycontin and Vicodin killed 17,536, an increase of 4 percent.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nati ... story.html

My personal opinion is that the primary prescription painkiller should be a high THC cannabis extract, NOT opioids. Marijuana has been oversold medically, just good for RA, as an MS throat spray and maybe some childhood epilepsy, but THC is an effective analgesic. It's way easier to cut off the addiction before it gets started rather than a regimen of prosecution and very expensive and mostly ineffective treatment.
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Re: Von Mises Institute reply to gun control

Post by Cardboard_killer » Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:59 pm

Cloaked Dagger wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:12 pm
Most people who choose not to use drugs usually make that decision based more on not wanting to become a drug addict verses it being illegal. If drugs were legalized tomorrow would you suddenly feel compelled to pick up a heroin habit?
How many people would still drink alcohol if it were illegal? Compare apples with apples--how many people used alcohol during prohibition compared to how many people use guns illegally during today's gun prohibition? Otherwise, you're just twisting statistics like the media.
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Re: Von Mises Institute reply to gun control

Post by jjk308 » Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:17 am

Cardboard_killer wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:59 pm
Cloaked Dagger wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:12 pm
Most people who choose not to use drugs usually make that decision based more on not wanting to become a drug addict verses it being illegal. If drugs were legalized tomorrow would you suddenly feel compelled to pick up a heroin habit?
How many people would still drink alcohol if it were illegal? Compare apples with apples--how many people used alcohol during prohibition compared to how many people use guns illegally during today's gun prohibition? Otherwise, you're just twisting statistics like the media.
Not pertinent to the discussion. Both guns and alcohol are an old and ingrained part of our culture. Addictive drugs are not. The manifold stupidities of the war on drugs doesn't mean that it hasn't kept the use of illicit drugs seriously repressed by stopping entry into full blown addiction via casual experimentation.
I swear by Jupiter Optimus Maximus .... in the army of the consul Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus and for 10 miles around it I will not steal anything worth more than a sestertius in any one day.

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Re: Von Mises Institute reply to gun control

Post by mohshard » Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:49 pm

jjk308 wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:17 am
Cardboard_killer wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:59 pm
Cloaked Dagger wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:12 pm
Most people who choose not to use drugs usually make that decision based more on not wanting to become a drug addict verses it being illegal. If drugs were legalized tomorrow would you suddenly feel compelled to pick up a heroin habit?
How many people would still drink alcohol if it were illegal? Compare apples with apples--how many people used alcohol during prohibition compared to how many people use guns illegally during today's gun prohibition? Otherwise, you're just twisting statistics like the media.
Not pertinent to the discussion. Both guns and alcohol are an old and ingrained part of our culture. Addictive drugs are not. The manifold stupidities of the war on drugs doesn't mean that it hasn't kept the use of illicit drugs seriously repressed by stopping entry into full blown addiction via casual experimentation.
Because cocaine, laudanum, opium, morphine, and ether weren't over the counter mail order drugs at one time.

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Re: Von Mises Institute reply to gun control

Post by Cardboard_killer » Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:27 pm

jjk308 wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:17 am
The manifold stupidities of the war on drugs doesn't mean that it hasn't kept the use of illicit drugs seriously repressed by stopping entry into full blown addiction via casual experimentation.
I'm sure there are liberals out there that think the same way about gun control--if we put stronger laws in place, we won't stop gun violence completely, but seriously repress it.
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Re: Von Mises Institute reply to gun control

Post by Racist Infidel » Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:09 pm

mohshard wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:49 pm
jjk308 wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:17 am
Cardboard_killer wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:59 pm
Cloaked Dagger wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:12 pm
Most people who choose not to use drugs usually make that decision based more on not wanting to become a drug addict verses it being illegal. If drugs were legalized tomorrow would you suddenly feel compelled to pick up a heroin habit?
How many people would still drink alcohol if it were illegal? Compare apples with apples--how many people used alcohol during prohibition compared to how many people use guns illegally during today's gun prohibition? Otherwise, you're just twisting statistics like the media.
Not pertinent to the discussion. Both guns and alcohol are an old and ingrained part of our culture. Addictive drugs are not. The manifold stupidities of the war on drugs doesn't mean that it hasn't kept the use of illicit drugs seriously repressed by stopping entry into full blown addiction via casual experimentation.
Because cocaine, laudanum, opium, morphine, and ether weren't over the counter mail order drugs at one time.
Even Coke Cola had cocaine in it. The slang for a Coke was a "Dope." They still use cocaine flavorings in the product.

Drugs were outlawed after Prohibition ended. They shifted control of alcohol to dope rather than dismantle the law enforcement system that had been developed.

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Re: Von Mises Institute reply to gun control

Post by P5 guy » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:38 am

Many of those Temperance Movement ladies loved their Patent Medicine
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Re: Von Mises Institute reply to gun control

Post by g.willikers » Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:48 am

What people choose to do to themselves should never be a concern of government.
Nor should attempts of regulating morals.
Both are the result of great arrogance.
Only dealing with well defined crime, with actual or intended victims, is within the jurisdiction of government in a free society.
Better minds than mine discovered these simple truths long ago.
Too bad we haven't been listening.
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Re: Von Mises Institute reply to gun control

Post by jjk308 » Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:33 am

Racist Infidel wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:09 pm
Drugs were outlawed after Prohibition ended. They shifted control of alcohol to dope rather than dismantle the law enforcement system that had been developed.
Wrong Prohibition started 5 years after drugs were outlawed. Typical of opiate addiction today many of the drugs were peddled in ignorance:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... rohibition
Wikipedia

1906: The Pure Food and Drug Act requires that certain specified drugs, including alcohol, cocaine, heroin, morphine, and cannabis, be accurately labeled with contents and dosage. Previously many drugs had been sold as patent medicines with secret ingredients or misleading labels. Cocaine, heroin, cannabis, and other such drugs continued to be legally available without prescription as long as they were labeled. It is estimated that sale of patent medicines containing opiates decreased by 33% after labeling was mandated.[2]

1911: United States first Opium Commissioner, Hamilton Wright argues that of all the nations of the world, the United States consumes most habit-forming drugs per capita.[3]

1913: The American Medical Association created a propaganda department to outlaw health fraud and quackery.[4] In the same year, California outlawed cannabis.

1914: The first recorded instance of the United States enacting a ban on the domestic distribution of drugs is the Harrison Narcotic Act[5] of 1914. This act was presented and passed as a method of regulating the production and distribution of opiate-containing substances under the commerce clause of the U.S. Constitution, but a [1] section of the act was later interpreted by law enforcement officials for the purpose of prosecuting doctors who prescribe opiates to addicts.
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Re: Von Mises Institute reply to gun control

Post by Cardboard_killer » Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:15 am

1968 Nixon declares war on his enemies and uses drug control as his weapon of choice.
John Ehrlichman wrote:The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did.
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Re: Von Mises Institute reply to gun control

Post by Water Rat » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:03 am

Over a trillion dollars has been spent on the failed public policy of the war on drugs in the last 4 decades.
Nope, still stick to my statement.

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Re: Von Mises Institute reply to gun control

Post by rug357 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:10 pm

g.willikers wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:48 am
What people choose to do to themselves should never be a concern of government.
What about the consequence of people and their action...should the unintended consequence be of government concern?
For example, maybe be we should legalize all drugs and other mind altering medications but what if people overdose while using those substance? Should the government be required to provide medical service to people who over dose?
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Re: Von Mises Institute reply to gun control

Post by n0rlf » Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:19 pm

rug357 wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:10 pm
g.willikers wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:48 am
What people choose to do to themselves should never be a concern of government.
What about the consequence of people and their action...should the unintended consequence be of government concern?
For example, maybe be we should legalize all drugs and other mind altering medications but what if people overdose while using those substance? Should the government be required to provide medical service to people who over dose?
Or rescue the idiots that get stuck on mountains being unprepared? Or even provide any assistance when it was someone's dumb ass decision that got them in need of assistance. Government should not be concerned when you or a loved one wrap your vehicle around a pole because you were driving too fast in the rain?

Kind of slippery slope huh?
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Re: Von Mises Institute reply to gun control

Post by g.willikers » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:02 pm

Either we are responsible for our actions or we demand that others are.
We are only our Brothers' Keepers if we choose to be.
Otherwise we are slaves.
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