Police Notification Required?

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mjmensale
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Police Notification Required?

Post by mjmensale » Fri May 28, 2010 8:44 am

I was reading a news article this morning and this left a question in my mind.

You're involved in a lethal shooting (you're the good guy) - anywhere except in your house. Does the law specifically require you to remain at the scene and/or to call the police? I understand that in today's society someone or something will most probably see you or catch you on film. But what if you are 110% sure that you could just "keep on walking" with no ramifications?

Are there specific statutes that cover this? What problems could arise for you if you are eventually discovered?

Let's try to keep this to "official" answers and not personal opinions. I want to know what the law says.
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards. Claire Wolfe

Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you. John Steinbeck

If you try to take our firearms, we will kill you. Mike Vanderboegh

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Robs
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Re: Police Notification Required?

Post by Robs » Fri May 28, 2010 10:10 am

What a mess to try and find a clear route through.
Seems to depend a lot on the local Police force involved,
the County it happens in,
the States attitude and may well fall under 5th Amendment rights on a Federal level.

Of some interest.
http://www.crimefilenews.com/2006/01/yo ... whats.html

This guy,Defender, seems to have been close to a lot of such situations and his advice is pretty much what I feel I would follow.
Defender
04-07-2006, 09:31 AM
I’ve been friends with, and collaborated with Mas Ayoob on shooting cases since he did his story on my shooting survival story in 1991.
I’ve been the defense investigator in hundreds of criminal trials that resulted from shootings and stabbings. Before that I was a policeman in Chicago for 12 years.
I’ve lobbied for right to carry and other gun rights in the Arizona Legislature for 14 years until it passed 11 years ago.
As for that bizarre MO law, I think we forgive lawyers for not knowing that one state passes such an un-Constitional piece of garbage. This does NOT exist in any other state or federal law.
As for Goetz, again I say had Goetz gone to a lawyer his confession to the cops would have NEVER happened. The cops and the world would have NEVER heard his name. Remember they only had a bad drawing of what the “Mystery Subway gunman looked like!
I’ve heard enough confessions on 911 tapes to last many lifetimes in prison. Many began with, “I just shot ______, I was in fear of my life!” 911 calls are taped as always and the first thing the prosecutors play for the juries at trials.
I have many 911 recordings I use in my concealed weapons classes to demonstrate my point.
Anyone reading this string needs to have a serious conversation with a criminal lawyer that has many of these cases under his belt. Every gun owner needs to know what to do after a shooting and have a plan to shut-up and get a lawyer. If you don’t have money for a lawyer wait until you get the public defenders advice. I promise you that advice will be to continue to shut-up and never give an interview to police. You will not talk or cooperate your way out of police custody so save yourself and don't bother trying.
I can't tell you how many weapons have not been collected and preserved before the police arrived at some shooting scene. The dopes in the neighborhood simply steal them. Don't let that happen. Get to safety and to a lawyer pronto.
http://www.familyfriendsfirearms.com/fo ... 46248.html

I spent quite a bit of time looking for a Florida "Case" but found nothing clear and concise and for the Country as a whole for that matter.
ROB
Dum Vivimus, Vivamus.

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Re: Police Notification Required?

Post by AirForceShooter » Fri May 28, 2010 10:20 am

really interesting question.

Not a WWYD thing but what does the law require.

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Re: Police Notification Required?

Post by FLEMTP » Fri May 28, 2010 7:09 pm

I would say yes.... because the law only authorizes one to use deadly force to stop a threat.. I would imagine that should you use that deadly force, and you leave, and do not notify the authorities, you could be potentially held criminally liable for your actions... especially depending on the outcome of the situation. For example.. you shoot someone, they are rendered incapacitated, but do not die, and you leave, do not call 911, and lets say no one else was aware the incident had happened...and then 4 or 5 hours later the person shot is found, alive, you would be guilty of criminal negligence in that matter for failing to seek appropriate help for the person.

I would say if you get into a shooting situation, and you truly feel like your well being would be at risk by staying at the scene and waiting for law enforcement, then I would say leaving would be fine, so long as you are calling law enforcement, letting them know where they can meet you, and can articulate exactly why it was you felt the need to leave the scene of a situation like that.

Honestly.. even if you were 110% sure that NO ONE saw the shooting occur, and EVEN IF you were fully justified in the shooting, I would still contact law enforcement. It would look very very very shady on your part should you shoot someone, and the body be discovered some time later, and they are able to link you back to the situation. IMHO that could constitute probable cause for an arrest on a charge of muder.
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Re: Police Notification Required?

Post by flashooter22 » Fri May 28, 2010 8:20 pm

how about this for statutes..

406.11 Examinations, investigations, and autopsies.--

(1) In any of the following circumstances involving the death of a human being, the medical examiner of the district in which the death occurred or the body was found shall determine the cause of death and shall, for that purpose, make or have performed such examinations, investigations, and autopsies as he or she shall deem necessary or as shall be requested by the state attorney:

(a) When any person dies in the state:

1. Of criminal violence.

2. By accident.

3. By suicide.

4. Suddenly, when in apparent good health.

5. Unattended by a practicing physician or other recognized practitioner.

6. In any prison or penal institution.

7. In police custody.

8. In any suspicious or unusual circumstance.

9. By criminal abortion.

10. By poison.

11. By disease constituting a threat to public health.

12. By disease, injury, or toxic agent resulting from employment.

(b) When a dead body is brought into the state without proper medical certification.

(c) When a body is to be cremated, dissected, or buried at sea.

(2)(a) The district medical examiner shall have the authority in any case coming under subsection (1) to perform, or have performed, whatever autopsies or laboratory examinations he or she deems necessary and in the public interest to determine the identification of or cause or manner of death of the deceased or to obtain evidence necessary for forensic examination.

(b) The Medical Examiners Commission shall adopt rules, pursuant to chapter 120, providing for the notification of the next of kin that an investigation by the medical examiner's office is being conducted. A medical examiner may not retain or furnish any body part of the deceased for research or any other purpose which is not in conjunction with a determination of the identification of or cause or manner of death of the deceased or the presence of disease or which is not otherwise authorized by this chapter, part V of chapter 765, or chapter 873, without notification of and approval by the next of kin.

(3) The Medical Examiners Commission may adopt rules incorporating by reference parameters or guidelines of practice or standards of conduct relating to examinations, investigations, or autopsies performed by medical examiners.

History.--s. 6, ch. 70-232; s. 26, ch. 73-334; s. 1, ch. 77-174; s. 1, ch. 87-166; s. 29, ch. 97-103; s. 3, ch. 98-253; s. 48, ch. 2006-1.

406.12 Duty to report; prohibited acts.--It is the duty of any person in the district where a death occurs, including all municipalities and unincorporated and federal areas, who becomes aware of the death of any person occurring under the circumstances described in s. 406.11 to report such death and circumstances forthwith to the district medical examiner. Any person who knowingly fails or refuses to report such death and circumstances, who refuses to make available prior medical or other information pertinent to the death investigation, or who, without an order from the office of the district medical examiner, willfully touches, removes, or disturbs the body, clothing, or any article upon or near the body, with the intent to alter the evidence or circumstances surrounding the death, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.


Looks like there is a duty to report to the medical examiner. Gaurentee if you call the M.E. and tell em you just shot someone they are sending out law enforcement first as the investigations are done in a dual role.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats - H.L. Mencken

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Re: Police Notification Required?

Post by glockpacker » Fri May 28, 2010 8:31 pm

From a pay phone, using gloves, a mask, and a fake voice...

Hello, Police? There's a dead body at 123 main street. Have a nice day.

"click"
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(Stolen from Moe without permission... because it's true) Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you. John Steinbeck

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Re: Police Notification Required?

Post by flashooter22 » Fri May 28, 2010 8:41 pm

glockpacker wrote:From a pay phone, using gloves, a mask, and a fake voice...

Hello, Police? There's a dead body at 123 main street. Have a nice day.

"click"
ahh true but that probably wont be enough especially if you were involved.

"death and circumstances "

Now of course this should probably only be done after making sure the scene is safe and of course consulting a lawyer.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats - H.L. Mencken

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Re: Police Notification Required?

Post by mjmensale » Fri May 28, 2010 8:59 pm

FLEMTP wrote:For example.. you shoot someone, they are rendered incapacitated, but do not die...
Please don't change the scenario! I specifically said a lethal shooting
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards. Claire Wolfe

Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you. John Steinbeck

If you try to take our firearms, we will kill you. Mike Vanderboegh

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Re: Police Notification Required?

Post by mjmensale » Fri May 28, 2010 9:12 pm

flashooter22 wrote:Looks like there is a duty to report to the medical examiner.
Can you reach the ME by dialing 911? I doubt anyone would call "information" looking for that number!

I probably should have been a bit more specific in the OP. The bad guy you shot (dead) is an individual well known to LE due to his more anti-social behavioir and complete lack of morals, ethics or any redeeming social values. Your typical hoodrat gangsta.

I can morally equivocate that a life is a life but this guy was a genuine piece of s';t. Will the cops really care? Do they really want to hunt down the citizen that just saved them and the taxpayers all kinds of future costs and grief?

I still don't see anything that compels me from just going home and cleaning the ol' Beretta.
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards. Claire Wolfe

Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you. John Steinbeck

If you try to take our firearms, we will kill you. Mike Vanderboegh

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Re: Police Notification Required?

Post by namelessfaceless » Fri May 28, 2010 9:27 pm

What if your life was in danger if you continued to stick around? Would that authorize a person to flee? :-k

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Re: Police Notification Required?

Post by flashooter22 » Fri May 28, 2010 9:30 pm

mjmensale wrote:
flashooter22 wrote:Looks like there is a duty to report to the medical examiner.
Can you reach the ME by dialing 911? I doubt anyone would call "information" looking for that number!

I probably should have been a bit more specific in the OP. The bad guy you shot (dead) is an individual well known to LE due to his more anti-social behavioir and complete lack of morals, ethics or any redeeming social values. Your typical hoodrat gangsta.

I can morally equivocate that a life is a life but this guy was a genuine piece of s';t. Will the cops really care? Do they really want to hunt down the citizen that just saved them and the taxpayers all kinds of future costs and grief?

I still don't see anything that compels me from just going home and cleaning the ol' Beretta.

As much as LE would sometimes love to just forget about a POS getting popped...doesnt quite work that way. All deaths (other then ones that occur in immediate Drs care/hospice/hospital) are investigated by police. Depending on the circumstances surrounded the cause of death dictates the scope and scale of the investigation. I have been to many deaths that I handle on the basic patrol deputy level...usually elderly/long medical history sort of thing and their dr is willing to sign a death certificate. I still need to notify and fax the ME my findings on all deaths I investigate. If there is unusual circumstances ..ie.. holes where they shouldnt be kind of thing, guys and gals with shirts and ties who have a lot more time and resources to investigate are called in, along with the ME who responds to the scene in person.

If there is an instance of a justifiable homicide and its just you and him...obviously he isnt talking to tell his side of the story. How will LE know if the death was justified if you pack it up and go home? DOesnt look good for ya even if you are in the right.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats - H.L. Mencken

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Re: Police Notification Required?

Post by flashooter22 » Fri May 28, 2010 9:32 pm

namelessfaceless wrote:What if your life was in danger if you continued to stick around? Would that authorize a person to flee? :-k
Obviously do what you need to do to get yourself to a safe place ....thats the whole point of self-defense and self preservation.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats - H.L. Mencken

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Re: Police Notification Required?

Post by namelessfaceless » Fri May 28, 2010 9:47 pm

mjmensale wrote:Do they really want to hunt down the citizen that just saved them and the taxpayers all kinds of future costs and grief?

I still don't see anything that compels me from just going home and cleaning the ol' Beretta.

I know some LEO's would think that way, but the majority would not. It's a dangerous bridge to cross when we justify taking a human life by the saving of some money. At what point would that be stopped?

Im searching for a court case as precedent to the original question, in favor of either side.

Also, waiting for Rentprop to come in here and say something like "make it look like a suicide" [smilie=popcorn.gif] [smilie=cheers1.gif]

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Re: Police Notification Required?

Post by Rentprop1 » Sat May 29, 2010 1:40 am

naa, toss down a playing card or matchbook, some hair from the local barber, a combo of lanolin ( like in shaving cream ) and vasoline to screw with any oil from prints and make the detectives work for it [-(

I'm still pissed about BSO sweeping Kurt's ( from Guns & Knives ) homicide under the rug ....said he sold a gun to a woman who used it to kill her husband, and his death had to be retaliation #-o
In the days of the old west a 6 shooter was as common as cell phones are today and just annoying if they go off in a theater.

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Re: Police Notification Required?

Post by Mushinto » Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:16 am

It seems that you want a specific statute that would criminalize leaving the scene of a shooting like you described. Good question. Here is the only one I can find right now:
The 2009 Florida Statutes

Title XLVI
CRIMES Chapter 843
OBSTRUCTING JUSTICE View Entire Chapter

843.21 Depriving crime victim of medical care.--A person who takes custody of or exercises control over a person he or she knows to be injured as a result of criminal activity and deprives that person of medical care with the intent to avoid, delay, hinder, or obstruct any investigation of the criminal activity contributing to the injury commits:

(1) If the victim's medical condition worsens as a result of the deprivation of medical care, a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(2) If deprivation of medical care contributes or results in the death of the victim, a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

History.--s. 2, ch. 2008-208.
You could argue that a dead man doesn't require medical care, but you would be the only witness that he was DRT (dead right there).
ML

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Re: Police Notification Required?

Post by rug357 » Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:05 am

namelessfaceless wrote:What if your life was in danger if you continued to stick around? Would that authorize a person to flee? :-k
I've read several different times that the thing to do in such situation is to get in your car and drive to a hospital.
While on the way call 911 and tell the operator what happened and that you are having chest pain and think you are having MI so driving to a hospital and to have the police meet him there.
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Re: Police Notification Required?

Post by Cracker » Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:34 am

mjmensale wrote:
flashooter22 wrote:Looks like there is a duty to report to the medical examiner.
Can you reach the ME by dialing 911? I doubt anyone would call "information" looking for that number!

I probably should have been a bit more specific in the OP. The bad guy you shot (dead) is an individual well known to LE due to his more anti-social behavioir and complete lack of morals, ethics or any redeeming social values. Your typical hoodrat gangsta.

I can morally equivocate that a life is a life but this guy was a genuine piece of s';t. Will the cops really care? Do they really want to hunt down the citizen that just saved them and the taxpayers all kinds of future costs and grief?

I still don't see anything that compels me from just going home and cleaning the ol' Beretta.
Except, perhaps the fact that you might, someday, use that same Beretta for defense in a situation where you can't just go home and clean your gun. The the bullet from your gun matches a bullet from an unsolved homicide, you're going to have a really, really tough time convincing a jury of your innocence in either case.
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Re: Police Notification Required?

Post by P5 guy » Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:39 am

Just a question to add to the others, Do the marks on bullets and cartridge cases really stay the same so as to be matchable?
I shoot pretty regularly and would think the wear patterns change slowly thru the course of a few hundred rounds?
:-k

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Re: Police Notification Required?

Post by Cracker » Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:49 am

P5 guy wrote:Just a question to add to the others, Do the marks on bullets and cartridge cases really stay the same so as to be matchable?
I shoot pretty regularly and would think the wear patterns change slowly thru the course of a few hundred rounds?
:-k
Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. It does not take a perfect match of all marks to conclude that a bullet and/or case come from a specific firearm. It only takes enough of a match for an expert to conclude that they do and a defense expert to be unable to refute the conclusion.
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Re: Police Notification Required?

Post by mohshard » Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:56 pm

Except, perhaps the fact that you might, someday, use that same Beretta for defense in a situation where you can't just go home and clean your gun. The the bullet from your gun matches a bullet from an unsolved homicide, you're going to have a really, really tough time convincing a jury of your innocence in either case.
So, if Moe sells a beretta cheap on here anytime soon, you don't want to buy it....

Realistically, with modern manufacturing and hollow points that lose their shape quickly, forensics guys have a lot of trouble determining if a bullet came from a specific gun rather than a type of gun. It's why Miami-Dade altered the muzzle of their G23s to leave a mark on their projectiles. I read after one shootout against criminals with Glock .40s, it was impossible to determine who fired which bullet based on markings alone.

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