Who carries appendix

State and national practical & political discussions on legal open, concealed and vehicle carry.
User avatar
Wasabi
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:45 am
Location: Land o Lutz

Re: Who carries appendix

Post by Wasabi » Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:44 pm

Skoll wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:16 pm
Wasabi wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:08 am
I lost about 40lbs in the last 6 months and can now tryout AWIB with some success. It was basically impossible for me before. It's still not perfect but I'm playing around with it. I agree on the Vedder LightTuck and Kusiak holsters. I have a few of each for different guns that work well. The Sticky and Remora holsters work well too.
Congrats on the weight loss! I'm just coming off four years disability myself and working on that.
Thanks! Yeah, just stick to a little at a time. Change your eating habits/lifestyle over trying to stick to some diet and you'll see the weight come off gradually. Good luck to you.

trouter3
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:16 pm

Post by trouter3 » Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:52 pm

My holsters are now all kydex, would really like to acquire leather again, I perspire ( sweat) profusely, down here in south Florida with the heat and humidity can't see ruining good expensive leather, I remember when I first arrived down south after living in the Pacific Northwest first thing I noticed was the salt staining the leather after wearing it only a short time, therefore only alternative was kydex or some form of plastic, not much choice down here ....

Ps after going thru this knee replacement I've lost 35 pounds, find the appendix carry much more comfortable after trimming down some ...

EDC Pistol Training
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:47 pm
Location: Fort Lauderdale
Contact:

Post by EDC Pistol Training » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:54 pm

Deputydave wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:01 am
We had a big discussion about this on GT a while back. Partly due to this video:

[Youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENT2X4TeZIM[/Youtube]

I talked with the owner of the website that originally posted the video and article. He knows the man that shot himself personally. Basically, they believe the undershirt got tucked down into the holster during the reholstering of the Glock 43. When he bent over it pulled on the trigger and caused the discharge. Some thought the video was staged, it was not and the man did indeed shot himself and is recovering.

Looking at the video, the man 'looked' the G43 into the holster (good idea). He didn't appear to rush. He wasn't acting the fool. Just didn't notice the undershirt being stuffed into the holster.

From a training perspective, a LOT of the issue with AD/ND is during the reholstering process with a striker fired pistol. That is because of the generally light trigger pull and/or short reset.

At one time, when I carried a G43 I also AIWB carried. After considering the video and rethought that approach and went back to strong side IWB. That is where I carry my G26.4 as well.

I have no issue carrying in the appendix position but will now only do so with a pistol that is either DAO or has a manual thumb safety. Some folks do like or use manual thumb safeties, I like them and would put one on my Glock if it wasn't so damn expensive. No, I'm not afraid of the striker fired Glock. Been carrying them for decades. But the propensity for a AD/ND is simply greater with a striker fired pistol than with a DAO or thumb safety pistol during the reholstering process. If I'm going to AIWB it would be with something like a Ruger LC9s with thumb safety.

As far as thumb safeties, provided you train for the platform it is a gross motor skill to disengage one during the draw, adds no time to the draw and is instinctive with proper training. And again, is inherently safer during the reholstering process.
I agree with your analysis that it was his undershirt that got caught inside the trigger guard and pulled on the trigger to make it discharge.

I disagree, however, with your conclusion about the need for manual safeties or DAO because the root cause was a poorly designed holster from a safety perspective.

The particular holster he was using (INCOG) has an unusually open area around the bottom of the holster where the trigger guard resides. This open area can allow too much shirt into the trigger guard area, as in this case. This is why a holster that has a closed area around and under the trigger guard is so important because even if the shirt gets caught in the trigger guard, no amount of pushing/seating the gun into the holster will make it go off.

User avatar
Deputydave
Posts: 58
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:56 am
Location: Hillsborough
Contact:

Post by Deputydave » Sun Nov 04, 2018 5:47 am

That is not the only type of holster in which a striker-fired pistol has discharged without intent. And you are making an assumption that another brand of holster would have made a difference. It is a fact however that a manual thumb safety would have prevented a discharge.

A manual safety offers NO negatives and ONLY positives. If Glock offered a manual thumb safety on their civilian pistols, like they do for L.E. and military contracts you would have less instances of Glock-leg.
Survival and Emergency Preparedness http://sepboard.us

P5 Guy
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:20 pm
Location: St Pete

Post by P5 Guy » Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:47 am

If Glock offered a manual thumb safety on their civilian pistols, like they do for L.E. and military contracts you would have less instances of Glock-leg.
The S&W M&P line comes without a safety and I have never read about a case of Military&Police leg?
Are there other striker fire pistols that rely only on the lever in the trigger to keep the gun 'safe'?

:?: :?: :?:

User avatar
Deputydave
Posts: 58
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:56 am
Location: Hillsborough
Contact:

Post by Deputydave » Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:33 am

The term 'Glock leg' is generic. Glock's have a history of going off due to either a finger on the trigger (aka Barney Fife syndrome) or an unintended object in the holster that isn't noticed when the pistol is reholstered. The first I'm aware of comes back in the 80's when a twig was in the holster of a police officer that had chased a bad guy through the woods. His sidearm discharged upon reholstering.

Doesn't mean Glock or any striker-fired pistol is necessarily unsafe but it does have a higher likelyhood of discharge than a DA pistol/revolver or one with a safety. That's just the nature of the beast. The reason is simple, a striker fired pistol has a light trigger pull and there is no way,other than an expensive aftermarket part, to realize the trigger is being engaged while inserting it in a holster. A DA pistol or revolver on the other hand will have the hammer travelling reward which can be felt with the thumb (which was the way it was trained back in the day during reholstering).

So a Glock or other striker fired pistol is safe from the aspect you can drop it or throw in against a wall and it won't discharge. There is an inherent risk of discharge however as explained above.

S&W M&P line as well as Ruger, HK and others offer the consumer an option of manual thumb safety or not. That's the proper way to do it i.e. provide the option and let the consumer decide. Although I like and carry Glock, this is a failing on their part. That and they're overpriced and come with plastic sights.
Survival and Emergency Preparedness http://sepboard.us

EDC Pistol Training
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:47 pm
Location: Fort Lauderdale
Contact:

Post by EDC Pistol Training » Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:07 pm

Deputydave wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 5:47 am
That is not the only type of holster in which a striker-fired pistol has discharged without intent. And you are making an assumption that another brand of holster would have made a difference. It is a fact however that a manual thumb safety would have prevented a discharge.

A manual safety offers NO negatives and ONLY positives. If Glock offered a manual thumb safety on their civilian pistols, like they do for L.E. and military contracts you would have less instances of Glock-leg.
Another brand/design of holster would have made a difference. This particular holster (and others like it) are not designed properly. Properly designed holsters prevent this type of discharge. I know because I've tested them.

I rolled with a 1911 cocked and locked for years, now I carry a Glock. I don't feel any more or less safe either way.

A properly designed and produced holster eliminates this type of issue.

User avatar
Deputydave
Posts: 58
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:56 am
Location: Hillsborough
Contact:

Post by Deputydave » Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:14 pm

I still have to disagree with your assessment. You weren't there and simply can't know that another type of holster would have prevented this accident. You can can make the assumption that another brand would have worked, but it is only an assumption. Either way it's really a moot point as OWB holsters, including duty holsters have had debris in them that have caused a discharge when the pistol was re-holstered. As I pointed out above, on Glock and most other striker-fired pistols placing your thumb on the back of the pistol isn't going to give you an indication of a problem like you would with a pistol or revolver that has a hammer. And of course properly engaging a manual thumb safety eliminates the problem altogether.

The simpliest solution when carrying a striker-fired pistol IWB is to remove the holster, insert the pistol and then insert the holstered pistol IWB. Or, if the striker-fired pistol has a manual thumb safety, simply engage it prior to re-holstering.
Survival and Emergency Preparedness http://sepboard.us

EDC Pistol Training
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:47 pm
Location: Fort Lauderdale
Contact:

Post by EDC Pistol Training » Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:36 pm

Deputydave wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:14 pm
I still have to disagree with your assessment. You weren't there and simply can't know that another type of holster would have prevented this accident. You can can make the assumption that another brand would have worked, but it is only an assumption. Either way it's really a moot point as OWB holsters, including duty holsters have had debris in them that have caused a discharge when the pistol was re-holstered. As I pointed out above, on Glock and most other striker-fired pistols placing your thumb on the back of the pistol isn't going to give you an indication of a problem like you would with a pistol or revolver that has a hammer. And of course properly engaging a manual thumb safety eliminates the problem altogether.

The simpliest solution when carrying a striker-fired pistol IWB is to remove the holster, insert the pistol and then insert the holstered pistol IWB. Or, if the striker-fired pistol has a manual thumb safety, simply engage it prior to re-holstering.
I don't know how you can disagree when we've tested the INCOG (the one in the video) and similar open underneath trigger guard holster designs and found they do allow a shirt to activate the trigger during holstering, and when we've tested other designs with a closed underneath trigger guard area and the shirt does not press against the trigger no matter how hard you try to push the gun into the holster.

OWB has nothing to do with this thread. It's a thread about AIWB and the ND in question was with an AIWB holster, and the holsters I'm talking about are all AIWB.

There's nothing inherently unsafe about a properly designed striker fired pistol, and when mated to a proper holster and gun handling skills is perfectly safe.

User avatar
Deputydave
Posts: 58
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:56 am
Location: Hillsborough
Contact:

Post by Deputydave » Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:39 am

I can disagree because I don't know you, know anything about you nor anything about your testing procedure(s). If you want to blame the holster I'm fine with that. I mentioned OWB and duty holsters as it pertains to the point(s) I've made. Your welcome to your viewpoint on striker-fired pistols. A manual thumb safety is inherently safer all the way around with nothing but positives and no negatives.

And that's why there are so many flavors of ice cream :D
Survival and Emergency Preparedness http://sepboard.us

Post Reply