Changes to Florida Constitution

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Skoll
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Re: Changes to Florida Constitution

Post by Skoll » Sat May 05, 2018 9:48 am

Dems just want to be seen as the great restorers.

My stance isn't about playing politics, I don't view my fellow countrymen as members of an opposing team but people who should have and do deserve the same inalienable rights we're all born with as Americans. Yes, some people f/;k up and make mistakes in their life, that doesn't mean they can't better themselves out of prison.
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Re: Changes to Florida Constitution

Post by randian » Sat May 05, 2018 1:23 pm

FfNJGTFO wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 9:38 am
I get why the dems want to restore voting rights to ex-felons. Because they think most will vote "dem." I wonder if that's actually the case though. I wonder what the political demographic really is, among felons / ex-felons.
The Guardian quotes an 1972-2000 study by NYU which says that felons vote about 3-1 for the Democrat. That easily sways the vote for a Senator or President in swing states. They wouldn't be swing states any more after that, just permanent Democrat rule everywhere, which is the point. The Democrats just cloak their lust for power in the mantle of helping people they don't actually care about. If they did they wouldn't import foreigners to steal jobs from blacks, which makes me wonder why blacks are so loyal to them.

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Re: Changes to Florida Constitution

Post by P5 guy » Sun May 06, 2018 6:54 am

How many second chances does anyone deserve?
Amendment 4 the 'second chance' to voting rights. Reading the US Constitution I see amendments pertaining to lower age limit, giving women votes, preventing discrimination. Nowhere do I see voting being a GOD given right, like free speech, not quartering troops, security in your belongings &c.
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Re: Changes to Florida Constitution

Post by Skoll » Sun May 06, 2018 7:32 am

A second chance is by definition a second chance. The only time people get anal over it is when it goes to someone they don't like.
"The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted.”

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Changes to Florida Constitution

Post by dammitgriff » Sun May 06, 2018 10:52 am

P5 guy wrote:How many second chances does anyone deserve?
Amendment 4 the 'second chance' to voting rights. Reading the US Constitution I see amendments pertaining to lower age limit, giving women votes, preventing discrimination. Nowhere do I see voting being a GOD given right, like free speech, not quartering troops, security in your belongings &c.
/:f
Constitution? Who cares about that old rag? Nobody follows that outdated Law of the Land anymore, least of all the United States government.
All the voting citizens have done since 1860 has led us to where we are today, so forgive me if I sound a little sarcastic and skeptical about the efficacy of voting in restoring our nation to sanity. It’s too late, this country is done thanks to our reverence for the state and support of its welfare/warfare agenda.

R/Griff

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Re: Changes to Florida Constitution

Post by P5 guy » Mon May 07, 2018 4:50 am

Skoll wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 7:32 am
A second chance is by definition a second chance. The only time people get anal over it is when it goes to someone they don't like.
Yeah, I don't like thieves, vandals, dopers, rapists, child molesters, politicians and murderers.
/:f
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Re: Changes to Florida Constitution

Post by Skoll » Mon May 07, 2018 6:41 am

P5 guy wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 4:50 am
Skoll wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 7:32 am
A second chance is by definition a second chance. The only time people get anal over it is when it goes to someone they don't like.
Yeah, I don't like thieves, vandals, dopers, rapists, child molesters, politicians and murderers.
/:f
I don't like them either. They're still afforded the same rights as you or I. It's disingenuous to assume every conflict ever is automatically the lowest tier of human scum. Evil people exist, no arguing that, it's the people whom fall through the cracks that are the majority.
"The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted.”

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Re: Changes to Florida Constitution

Post by n0rlf » Mon May 07, 2018 2:27 pm

Skoll wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 6:41 am
P5 guy wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 4:50 am
Skoll wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 7:32 am
A second chance is by definition a second chance. The only time people get anal over it is when it goes to someone they don't like.
Yeah, I don't like thieves, vandals, dopers, rapists, child molesters, politicians and murderers.
/:f
I don't like them either. They're still afforded the same rights as you or I. It's disingenuous to assume every conflict ever is automatically the lowest tier of human scum. Evil people exist, no arguing that, it's the people whom fall through the cracks that are the majority.
So how about 3rd, 4th, or more chances? With the way the system works it is usually way past their 2nd chance by the time they get charged with something serious. Plea deals and other first offense programs mean that usually it is a 3rd or 4th chance.

Tell the 2nd chance thought to the family of the cop shot in the head recently by a 2nd chance convicted felon! I am sure they will be comforted.
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Re: Changes to Florida Constitution

Post by Skoll » Mon May 07, 2018 6:50 pm

I think youse guys major issues here is you are taking everything to an extreme. Oh s';t, someones a felon? They must be a cop killer!

Life is not black and white no matter how narrow your personal world view is. American citizens have rights regardless of how shitty they are or aren't. The entire being ok with the State stripping those of their voting franchise is fascist as f/;k. Need I remind some of you that the ACLU has even defended the KKK before?
"The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted.”

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Re: Changes to Florida Constitution

Post by n0rlf » Mon May 07, 2018 8:10 pm

Skoll wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 6:50 pm
I think youse guys major issues here is you are taking everything to an extreme. Oh s';t, someones a felon? They must be a cop killer!

Life is not black and white no matter how narrow your personal world view is. American citizens have rights regardless of how shitty they are or aren't. The entire being ok with the State stripping those of their voting franchise is fascist as f/;k. Need I remind some of you that the ACLU has even defended the KKK before?
I am for people having their rights. However, violent feelings should not be released so it is really a non issue now is it not. If they are in jail them they lose their rights. Period. As they have as I outlined above already had many chances and proven incapable of remaining out of trouble they also acknowledge they have lost their rights.

If it was a crime of violence then they should rot in jail. Or be put to death in the extreme cases. Only difference in most cases of pleading for feelings to keep their rights is usually she and if someone has had their life affected by a felon.

I did, losing a fiance to a felon 30 some years ago. He had several chances. Should he be allowed rights after killing someone? As long as she lost her he should loser his. And no she was not a cop.

Harsh? Maybe, but I really don't care. I think we have second chances our way into the issue we have now. No more coddling criminals. No deterrence programs, no plea deals, no leniency. Do the crime do the time. All of it not half due to good behavior.
Remember:
2 truths in life
It is easier to seek forgiveness than permission!
Always drink upstream from the herd!

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Re: Changes to Florida Constitution

Post by P5 guy » Tue May 08, 2018 6:26 am

The vote is a PRIVILEGE granted to CITIZENS in good standing, the vote is NOT a right.
Read the US Constitution.
There are amendments concerning discrimination, gender and a lower age limit none of which guaranty a right.
Re-Enfranchise felons? Why not put polling place in prisons?
There is a path for ex-felons to get their privilege to vote back. It takes effort for sure. If said ex-felon wants to have a voice in government then that person should expend that effort.
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Re: Changes to Florida Constitution

Post by dammitgriff » Tue May 08, 2018 7:33 am

Congress is full of felons, so there’s always hope the prison-to-Congress pipeline will serve them well.
Also, “thanks to an overabundance of 4500-plus federal crimes and 400,000 plus rules and regulations, it’s estimated that the average American actually commits three felonies a day without knowing it. As a result of this overcriminalization, we’re seeing an uptick in Americans being arrested and jailed for such absurd “violations” as letting their kids play at a park unsupervised, collecting rainwater and snow runoff on their own property, growing vegetables in their yard, and holding Bible studies in their living room.”
https://www.rutherford.org/publications ... ts_into_hi


R/Griff

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Re: Changes to Florida Constitution

Post by n0rlf » Tue May 08, 2018 8:03 am

dammitgriff wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 7:33 am
Congress is full of felons, so there’s always hope the prison-to-Congress pipeline will serve them well.
Also, “thanks to an overabundance of 4500-plus federal crimes and 400,000 plus rules and regulations, it’s estimated that the average American actually commits three felonies a day without knowing it. As a result of this overcriminalization, we’re seeing an uptick in Americans being arrested and jailed for such absurd “violations” as letting their kids play at a park unsupervised, collecting rainwater and snow runoff on their own property, growing vegetables in their yard, and holding Bible studies in their living room.”
https://www.rutherford.org/publications ... ts_into_hi


R/Griff
I doubt anyone would argue over the fact there are a lot of laws out there that are rather stupid. None of the ones you listed though are the violent felonies I worry about. I would fight with anyone against s stupid law.

However do not confuse the issues by bringing other concerns about stupid laws. There are several degrees of feelings of course. Losing your rights and privileges should be proportional to the crime.

There is just no reason for violent felons to recover their right to firearms. None. No one will ever convince me otherwise. If they cannot be trusted with them fine, leave them in prison. I am all for extremely harsh penalties. Plea deals and deterrence programs are worthless as has been shown numerous times.

One second chance is enough when it comes to violence. Most get that second chance several times over until they get caught doing something bad enough that it can no longer be ignored.

So the debate will continue but no one has come up with a good reason to restore rights for felons yet in my mind. Again, that is for the violent feelings not the water catchers or those free ranging their kids. That is an entire different conversation.
Remember:
2 truths in life
It is easier to seek forgiveness than permission!
Always drink upstream from the herd!

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Re: Changes to Florida Constitution

Post by Skoll » Tue May 08, 2018 8:16 am

n0rlf wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 8:10 pm
Skoll wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 6:50 pm
I think youse guys major issues here is you are taking everything to an extreme. Oh s';t, someones a felon? They must be a cop killer!

Life is not black and white no matter how narrow your personal world view is. American citizens have rights regardless of how shitty they are or aren't. The entire being ok with the State stripping those of their voting franchise is fascist as f/;k. Need I remind some of you that the ACLU has even defended the KKK before?
I am for people having their rights. However, violent feelings should not be released so it is really a non issue now is it not. If they are in jail them they lose their rights. Period. As they have as I outlined above already had many chances and proven incapable of remaining out of trouble they also acknowledge they have lost their rights.

If it was a crime of violence then they should rot in jail. Or be put to death in the extreme cases. Only difference in most cases of pleading for feelings to keep their rights is usually she and if someone has had their life affected by a felon.

I did, losing a fiance to a felon 30 some years ago. He had several chances. Should he be allowed rights after killing someone? As long as she lost her he should loser his. And no she was not a cop.

Harsh? Maybe, but I really don't care. I think we have second chances our way into the issue we have now. No more coddling criminals. No deterrence programs, no plea deals, no leniency. Do the crime do the time. All of it not half due to good behavior.
My condolences to your fiancee, but that still doesn't change the fact that not every felony is the same. It's a felony to put a wrong tag on a car here, should I lose my right to vote over that?

I feel the way we approach prison and prisoners in the US is kind of fucked and is probably the only thing I will ever agree with Europeans over. We create a prison mill system to keep offenders violent offenders, so they keep getting cycled through the prisons, both public and private, for the enrichment of others.

I am in no way saying that there aren't evil people out there and I recognize some people just need to be killed but I imagine if we focused on actual rehabilitation and reintegration into society instead of sit in this area no bigger than a closet for most of your day, we might not have the issues with it that we do. As George Carlin said, "You never can tell, it might just work; it certainly hasn’t been tried yet.". (that was referring to police decency originally but I feel the same sentiment applies here)
Last edited by Skoll on Tue May 08, 2018 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Changes to Florida Constitution

Post by dammitgriff » Tue May 08, 2018 9:35 am

Would you expect to be able to defend your life regardless of a felony conviction? The right to self defense is not granted or denied by state decree, it is a natural right inherent in our humanity. Although violent criminals (or anyone else in society, for that matter) don’t have the right to initiate violence, they still have the right to fend off unprovoked attacks, the same as any other human on the planet.
Laws that restrict felons from gun ownership are ineffective because they’ll carry anyway, whether for legitimate self-protection or illegitimate use. It’s for the latter that all citizens should be allowed to carry at their own discretion, not the state’s.
R/Griff
Last edited by dammitgriff on Tue May 08, 2018 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Changes to Florida Constitution

Post by n0rlf » Tue May 08, 2018 3:28 pm

Again, if they are bad enough to not be trusted with a firearm they do not belong in society. Therefore any rights they may be entitled to is a moot point.

Lest we forget the old addage, live by the sword die by the sword. They made the choice that got them where they are. Now they have to live by that choice. That is the biggie issue in my mind.
Remember:
2 truths in life
It is easier to seek forgiveness than permission!
Always drink upstream from the herd!

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