ATF Sting

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dammitgriff
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ATF Sting

Post by dammitgriff » Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:01 am

Ah, the Lockean argument...ok.
Very silly indeed to think government can and should force people to conform to ITS ideals. The more government we have, the less freedom we get. We don’t need no stinking government to form laws in a society where consent to follow them is voluntary among people. People face economic disadvantages when they don’t follow the rules. We don’t need government to address those who don’t follow the rules.
I prefer Mises and Rothbard, myself. The praxeologic approach always made more sense when compared to other ideological motivators of man.
Mises writes all about the economic incentives that truthfully drive civilization as we know it in his seminal work, Human Action.
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Re: ATF Sting

Post by Skoll » Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:28 am

I wish I still had that kind of idealism.
"The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted.”

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ATF Sting

Post by dammitgriff » Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:30 am

Skoll wrote:I wish I still had that kind of idealism.
Me too. Good point.
None of it has worked since we started keeping records, has it?
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Re: ATF Sting

Post by Cloaked Dagger » Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:00 am

jjk308 wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:33 am
dammitgriff wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:33 pm
Well, Skoll, while I agree that a contract isn’t necessary to form a civilized society, NEITHER IS GOVERNMENT.
You may be reasonable, sane and peaceable enough to live without government but it is a very silly fantasy to think that all people will conform to your ideals. Protecting you from THEM is the function of government.

“Two Treatises of Government” (1690) John Locke

" All men by nature are equal in that equal right that every man hath to his natural freedom, without being subjected to the will or authority of any other man; being all equal and independent, no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty or possessions."

"The end of law is not to abolish or restrain, but to preserve and enlarge freedom. For in all the states of created beings capable of law, where there is no law, there is no freedom."

"Freedom of men under government is to have a standing rule to live by, common to every one of that society and made by the legislative power vested in it and not to be subject to the inconstant, uncertain, arbitrary will of another man."

"The only way whereby anyone divests himself of his natural liberty, and puts on the bonds of civil society, is by agreeing with other men to join and unite into a community, for their comfortable, safe, and peaceable living one amongst another, in a secure enjoyment of their properties, and a greater security against any that are not of it."

" Freedom of Men under Government is, to have a standing Rule to live by, common to every one of that Society, and made by the Legislative Power erected in it; a Liberty to follow my own Will in all things, where the Rule prescribes not; and not to be subject to the inconstant, uncertain, unknown, Arbitrary Will of another Man...."
The issue is that we had passed the point were laws are made to protect freedom long ago. We already have all the law we need to protect freedom, new laws only restrict it and this has been the case for a very long time.

Think of the relationship of freedom to law as a line graph that climbs and then quickly reaches a maximum level of freedom at a realitively low amount of law, after this the direction changes and adding more laws begins to decrease freedom and does so for the remainder of the graph. We are very well past that maximum.
Libertas aut mortis!

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Re: ATF Sting

Post by dammitgriff » Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:14 am

Cloaked Dagger wrote:
jjk308 wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:33 am
dammitgriff wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:33 pm
Well, Skoll, while I agree that a contract isn’t necessary to form a civilized society, NEITHER IS GOVERNMENT.
You may be reasonable, sane and peaceable enough to live without government but it is a very silly fantasy to think that all people will conform to your ideals. Protecting you from THEM is the function of government.

“Two Treatises of Government” (1690) John Locke

" All men by nature are equal in that equal right that every man hath to his natural freedom, without being subjected to the will or authority of any other man; being all equal and independent, no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty or possessions."

"The end of law is not to abolish or restrain, but to preserve and enlarge freedom. For in all the states of created beings capable of law, where there is no law, there is no freedom."

"Freedom of men under government is to have a standing rule to live by, common to every one of that society and made by the legislative power vested in it and not to be subject to the inconstant, uncertain, arbitrary will of another man."

"The only way whereby anyone divests himself of his natural liberty, and puts on the bonds of civil society, is by agreeing with other men to join and unite into a community, for their comfortable, safe, and peaceable living one amongst another, in a secure enjoyment of their properties, and a greater security against any that are not of it."

" Freedom of Men under Government is, to have a standing Rule to live by, common to every one of that Society, and made by the Legislative Power erected in it; a Liberty to follow my own Will in all things, where the Rule prescribes not; and not to be subject to the inconstant, uncertain, unknown, Arbitrary Will of another Man...."
The issue is that we had passed the point were laws are made to protect freedom long ago. We already have all the law we need to protect freedom, new laws only restrict it and this has been the case for a very long time.

Think of the relationship of freedom to law as a line graph that climbs and then quickly reaches a maximum level of freedom at a realitively low amount of law, after this the direction changes and adding more laws begins to decrease freedom and does so for the remainder of the graph. We are very well past that maximum.
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Orlando Paulitician
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Re: ATF Sting

Post by Orlando Paulitician » Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:15 am

The air quotes were comical.
Nathan Lewis' testimony before congress wrote: According to a study of 775 floating currencies...the average life expectancy of a floating fiat currency was found to be 27 years.
Ron Paul's Farewell Address wrote:Real patriotism is the willingness to challenge the government when it's wrong,

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Re: ATF Sting

Post by zeebaron » Sat Jun 02, 2018 2:54 pm

dammitgriff wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:30 am
Skoll wrote:I wish I still had that kind of idealism.
Me too. Good point.
None of it has worked since we started keeping records, has it?
R/Griff
Always works for the people behind the scenes.

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Re: ATF Sting

Post by jjk308 » Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:57 am

dammitgriff wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:14 am
The issue is that we had passed the point were laws are made to protect freedom long ago. We already have all the law we need to protect freedom, new laws only restrict it and this has been the case for a very long time.

R/Griff
We passed that point because too many otherwise sensible and idealistic people on the Right drifted off, dropping the eternal vigilance required for freedom and replacing it with emotionally fulfilling but useless, impossible Libertarian dogma and 3rd party politicking.

Stopping idiot attempts to "fix" problems mostly invented by political operatives, lobbyists and the news media is not exciting but it is MANDATORY, and because it wasn't done we are stuck with the more difficult job of repealing the legislative excesses .
[smilie=014.gif]
I swear by Jupiter Optimus Maximus .... in the army of the consul Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus and for 10 miles around it I will not steal anything worth more than a sestertius in any one day.

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ATF Sting

Post by dammitgriff » Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:06 am

Like it or not, the libertarian path is gonna be the only one left to get this country out of the ditches. R’s and D’s have equal share of the blame for where the country is today. The bicameral system has failed and no one has the balls to admit it in D.C. — or elsewhere.
Libertarianism in theory is decentralization in practice. Nothing more, and nothing less.
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Re: ATF Sting

Post by Cloaked Dagger » Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:00 am

jjk308 wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:57 am
dammitgriff wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:14 am
The issue is that we had passed the point were laws are made to protect freedom long ago. We already have all the law we need to protect freedom, new laws only restrict it and this has been the case for a very long time.

R/Griff
We passed that point because too many otherwise sensible and idealistic people on the Right drifted off, dropping the eternal vigilance required for freedom and replacing it with emotionally fulfilling but useless, impossible Libertarian dogma and 3rd party politicking.

Stopping idiot attempts to "fix" problems mostly invented by political operatives, lobbyists and the news media is not exciting but it is MANDATORY, and because it wasn't done we are stuck with the more difficult job of repealing the legislative excesses .
[smilie=014.gif]
I’m sure that the Republican Party becoming saturated with people who don’t believe in or represent those libertarian ideals of limited government and individual freedom had nothing to do with it. Republicans would never do anything like ram though a rush bill that banned certain gun accessories, allowed gun confiscation without due process, or completely eliminate the gun rights of adult citizens just because they were under a certain approved age....oh that’s right.
Libertas aut mortis!

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Re: ATF Sting

Post by REDinFL » Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:52 am

When I was growing up in NYC, the Democrats were in charge, and they were the crooks. Across the river, in NJ, the Republicans were in charge, and it was the Republicans who were the crooks. Are we seeing a pattern here? Let's see, in FL today, the Republicans (so called) are in charge and passed a bill which is abhorrent to the Constitution, and easily ''weaponized'' (if I may be forgiven using the latest buzzword) for many other purposes.
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Re: ATF Sting

Post by zeebaron » Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:09 am

Team sports is rigged, team politics is rigged...

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Re: ATF Sting

Post by N4KVE » Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:35 am

REDinFL wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:52 am
When I was growing up in NYC, the Democrats were in charge, and they were the crooks. Across the river, in NJ, the Republicans were in charge, and it was the Republicans who were the crooks. Are we seeing a pattern here? Let's see, in FL today, the Republicans (so called) are in charge and passed a bill which is abhorrent to the Constitution, and easily ''weaponized'' (if I may be forgiven using the latest buzzword) for many other purposes.
Let’s face it. They’re both crooks. We have to choose the lesser of 2 evils. GARY

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Re: ATF Sting

Post by zeebaron » Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:37 am

N4KVE wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:35 am
REDinFL wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:52 am
When I was growing up in NYC, the Democrats were in charge, and they were the crooks. Across the river, in NJ, the Republicans were in charge, and it was the Republicans who were the crooks. Are we seeing a pattern here? Let's see, in FL today, the Republicans (so called) are in charge and passed a bill which is abhorrent to the Constitution, and easily ''weaponized'' (if I may be forgiven using the latest buzzword) for many other purposes.
Let’s face it. They’re both crooks. We have to choose the lesser of 2 evils. GARY
Gotta serve someone.

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Re: ATF Sting

Post by REDinFL » Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:52 pm

zeebaron wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:37 am
N4KVE wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:35 am
REDinFL wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:52 am
When I was growing up in NYC, the Democrats were in charge, and they were the crooks. Across the river, in NJ, the Republicans were in charge, and it was the Republicans who were the crooks. Are we seeing a pattern here? Let's see, in FL today, the Republicans (so called) are in charge and passed a bill which is abhorrent to the Constitution, and easily ''weaponized'' (if I may be forgiven using the latest buzzword) for many other purposes.
Let’s face it. They’re both crooks. We have to choose the lesser of 2 evils. GARY
Gotta serve someone.
Exactly. And, that's the point, whichever is in power will attract crooks who invariably gravitate to power and the money it yields.
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