Private sale question.

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pro2ndam
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Private sale question.

Post by pro2ndam » Sun May 27, 2018 2:07 pm

Hello all,

With the new Florida laws in place, am I, a private citizen, still able to sell a .22LR rifle to another private citizen or do I have to go through an FFL? Has the age requirement changed or anything else on a private sale?

I've checked a few places online but it seems the dates of what I read were not recent dates. It would be much appreciated if someone can guide me to where I can find the latest information on private sales in Florida.

Thanks much!

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Re: Private sale question.

Post by Cloaked Dagger » Sun May 27, 2018 2:29 pm

Keep the sale to someone over 21 years old and you are good. Selling to someone under 21 is definitely illegal for them to buy it and probably illegal for you to sell it though the later part of that is less clear in the wording.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice. This is just my own amateur understanding of the new law.
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Gregh181
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Re: Private sale question.

Post by Gregh181 » Sun May 27, 2018 2:41 pm

Just ask for valid Fl ID and ask to make sure their not a felon. That’s what I do and it covers me. Ive never sold a gun to someone under 21, it’s usualky old dudes [smilie=011.gif]
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Skoll
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Re: Private sale question.

Post by Skoll » Sun May 27, 2018 3:22 pm

Seeing how a .22 LR is a weapon of war and needs to be off these streets, you oughta bee ashamed of yourself.
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Orlando Paulitician
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Re: Private sale question.

Post by Orlando Paulitician » Sun May 27, 2018 10:46 pm

pro2ndam wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 2:07 pm
Hello all,

With the new Florida laws in place,
what new FL laws would that be?
Nathan Lewis' testimony before congress wrote: According to a study of 775 floating currencies...the average life expectancy of a floating fiat currency was found to be 27 years.
Ron Paul's Farewell Address wrote:Real patriotism is the willingness to challenge the government when it's wrong,

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Re: Private sale question.

Post by P5 guy » Mon May 28, 2018 6:34 am

Orlando Paulitician wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 10:46 pm
pro2ndam wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 2:07 pm
Hello all,

With the new Florida laws in place,
what new FL laws would that be?
The law pushed thru by the GOP and signed by GOP Gov. R. Scott to appease Shannon Watts and Mike Bloomberg, that bans long gun sales to any person under 21.
I AM THE GUN LOBBY AND I VOTE!

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Orlando Paulitician
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Re: Private sale question.

Post by Orlando Paulitician » Mon May 28, 2018 10:10 am

P5 guy wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 6:34 am
Orlando Paulitician wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 10:46 pm
pro2ndam wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 2:07 pm
Hello all,

With the new Florida laws in place,
what new FL laws would that be?
The law pushed thru by the GOP and signed by GOP Gov. R. Scott to appease Shannon Watts and Mike Bloomberg, that bans long gun sales to any person under 21.
I work such ridiculous hours at my job, half the news goes unnoticed. ](*,)

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/08/us/f ... -bill.html

The link is being vague, but I think it might only apply to FFLs.

It's saying the ability to sell handguns has always been 21, which is the case for FFLs not private owners.

Best way to tell if this change only applies to FFLs or if its universal: read the bill/law.

https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2 ... ext/er/PDF
790.065 Sale and delivery of firearms.— 677
(13) A person younger than 21 years of age may not purchase 678
a firearm. The sale or transfer of a firearm to a person younger 679
than 21 years of age may not be made or facilitated by a 680
licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer. A 681
person who violates this subsection commits a felony of the 682
third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, 683
or s. 775.084. The prohibitions of this subsection do not apply 684
to the purchase of a rifle or shotgun by a law enforcement 685
officer or correctional officer, as those terms are defined in 686
s. 943.10(1), (2), (3), (6), (7), (8), or (9), or a 687
servicemember as defined in s. 250.01.

I'm not a lawyer, so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but it does in fact appear to ban all pre-21yoa sales.
Nathan Lewis' testimony before congress wrote: According to a study of 775 floating currencies...the average life expectancy of a floating fiat currency was found to be 27 years.
Ron Paul's Farewell Address wrote:Real patriotism is the willingness to challenge the government when it's wrong,

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Re: Private sale question.

Post by zeebaron » Mon May 28, 2018 2:26 pm

The way it reads in plain English is that it only criminalizes the purchaser in a private sale transaction if they happen to be under 21. That may have not been their intention, but that's how it reads.

Note that it says purchase, not possess. You can still give one as a gift to someone "underage".

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Re: Private sale question.

Post by Cloaked Dagger » Thu May 31, 2018 8:40 am

zeebaron wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 2:26 pm
The way it reads in plain English is that it only criminalizes the purchaser in a private sale transaction if they happen to be under 21. That may have not been their intention, but that's how it reads.

Note that it says purchase, not possess. You can still give one as a gift to someone "underage".
Yes but if you facilitate their crime by selling it two then does that have criminal legal implications to you such as being an accessory to a crime. You would have to read the other statues regarding conspiracy and accessory charges to answer this.

Otherwise yes that is the way it reads.
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Re: Private sale question.

Post by zeebaron » Thu May 31, 2018 9:54 am

Cloaked Dagger wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 8:40 am
zeebaron wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 2:26 pm
The way it reads in plain English is that it only criminalizes the purchaser in a private sale transaction if they happen to be under 21. That may have not been their intention, but that's how it reads.

Note that it says purchase, not possess. You can still give one as a gift to someone "underage".
Yes but if you facilitate their crime by selling it two then does that have criminal legal implications to you such as being an accessory to a crime. You would have to read the other statues regarding conspiracy and accessory charges to answer this.
But it spells out clearly who are accessories to the crime if it happens: FFL licensees. There are zero regulations in the Florida Statutes that apply to the sellers in private sales, not even to look at someone's ID. Yes, I'm sure they would try to go after your if you KNOWINGLY sold to anyone underage or who is prohibited from owning a firearm.

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Re: Private sale question.

Post by Cloaked Dagger » Thu May 31, 2018 11:57 am

zeebaron wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 9:54 am
Cloaked Dagger wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 8:40 am
zeebaron wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 2:26 pm
The way it reads in plain English is that it only criminalizes the purchaser in a private sale transaction if they happen to be under 21. That may have not been their intention, but that's how it reads.

Note that it says purchase, not possess. You can still give one as a gift to someone "underage".
Yes but if you facilitate their crime by selling it two then does that have criminal legal implications to you such as being an accessory to a crime. You would have to read the other statues regarding conspiracy and accessory charges to answer this.
But it spells out clearly who are accessories to the crime if it happens: FFL licensees. There are zero regulations in the Florida Statutes that apply to the sellers in private sales, not even to look at someone's ID. Yes, I'm sure they would try to go after your if you KNOWINGLY sold to anyone underage or who is prohibited from owning a firearm.
This is what might trip you up though:
777.011 Principal in first degree.—Whoever commits any criminal offense against the state, whether felony or misdemeanor, or aids, abets, counsels, hires, or otherwise procures such offense to be committed, and such offense is committed or is attempted to be committed, is a principal in the first degree and may be charged, convicted, and punished as such, whether he or she is or is not actually or constructively present at the commission of such offense.
and
777.04 Attempts, solicitation, and conspiracy.—
(1) A person who attempts to commit an offense prohibited by law and in such attempt does any act toward the commission of such offense, but fails in the perpetration or is intercepted or prevented in the execution thereof, commits the offense of criminal attempt, ranked for purposes of sentencing as provided in subsection (4). Criminal attempt includes the act of an adult who, with intent to commit an offense prohibited by law, allures, seduces, coaxes, or induces a child under the age of 12 to engage in an offense prohibited by law.
(2) A person who solicits another to commit an offense prohibited by law and in the course of such solicitation commands, encourages, hires, or requests another person to engage in specific conduct which would constitute such offense or an attempt to commit such offense commits the offense of criminal solicitation, ranked for purposes of sentencing as provided in subsection (4).
(3) A person who agrees, conspires, combines, or confederates with another person or persons to commit any offense commits the offense of criminal conspiracy, ranked for purposes of sentencing as provided in subsection (4).
By selling a firearm to someone under 21 you are agreeing, conspiring, combining, or confederating with them for them to commit an offense and aiding and abetting them in doing so.
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zeebaron
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Re: Private sale question.

Post by zeebaron » Thu May 31, 2018 12:00 pm

Like I said, knowingly.

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Re: Private sale question.

Post by Cloaked Dagger » Thu May 31, 2018 12:02 pm

zeebaron wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 12:00 pm
Like I said, knowingly.
There is nothing in that statute that requires you to know that it's a crime or that that they are underage. It's a very fine line and I doubt your last name is Clinton so I wouldn't count on getting off based on "no evidence of intent" or "no knowledge" or some such. I would not want to be a test case.
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Re: Private sale question.

Post by zeebaron » Thu May 31, 2018 12:44 pm

OK, go pay a lawyer to tell you that you are wrong.

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Re: Private sale question.

Post by photohause » Thu May 31, 2018 1:56 pm

Image
What new gun my dear, this old thing?

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Re: Private sale question.

Post by tector » Thu May 31, 2018 5:38 pm

Dear newbie, sorry for the big dick contest run over question.

Private sell your firearms to people 21 and older. Ask to see their drivers license to confirm they are Florida residents. Enjoy your proceeds. Easy.

There are certain weapons I choose to sell only to people with a CWP, but that is only because I prefer to decrease my chances of reporters chasing me around asking why I sold an "assault rifle" to some mass shooting nut or archcriminal. YMMV, it is not required.
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Re: Private sale question.

Post by Skoll » Thu May 31, 2018 8:05 pm

tector wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 5:38 pm
Dear newbie, sorry for the big dick contest run over question.

Private sell your firearms to people 21 and older. Ask to see their drivers license to confirm they are Florida residents. Enjoy your proceeds. Easy.

There are certain weapons I choose to sell only to people with a CWP, but that is only because I prefer to decrease my chances of reporters chasing me around asking why I sold an "assault rifle" to some mass shooting nut or archcriminal. YMMV, it is not required.
I was actually really surprised when I bought a rifle instate off Armslist and asked the guy if he wanted to see my CCW to verify and said no. If I was going to sell my gun I'd probably only sell to a CCW holder but thats just me.
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Re: Private sale question.

Post by pro2ndam » Thu May 31, 2018 8:49 pm

tector wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 5:38 pm
Dear newbie, sorry for the big dick contest run over question.

Private sell your firearms to people 21 and older. Ask to see their drivers license to confirm they are Florida residents. Enjoy your proceeds. Easy.
Thank you, sir. As clear as can be. And don't apologize for the big dick contest. It was a few seconds of entertainment. Heck, they can keep at it if they want.

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Re: Private sale question.

Post by Cloaked Dagger » Thu May 31, 2018 9:39 pm

zeebaron wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 12:44 pm
OK, go pay a lawyer to tell you that you are wrong.
No thank you. I’ll just sell my guns to people over 21 if I sell them. You can pay the lawyer to figure it out when some overzealous cop and prosecutor decide to charge you with a conspiracy crime for selling to someone younger, regardless of whether or not it turns out to actually be legal even if you beat the rap you won’t beat the ride or legal fees.

I didn’t say it was definitely illegal for the seller. I’m not sure if it is or not. What I said was it’s potentially legally vague enough that I wouldn’t want to be the test case. Why don’t you try it and figure it out for the rest of us since you think paying a lawyer to say I’m wrong is such a great idea? I really would like to see where case law ends up landing on that because you could very well be right. I don’t want to be the one put in a position to need to pay a lawyer to find out though.
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Private sale question.

Post by dammitgriff » Thu May 31, 2018 11:01 pm

The whole issue of the government controlling private sales of private property between two consenting adults is ridiculous.
There is absolutely zero practical difference between selling a firearm and a baseball bat to a legal adult.
The fact that we’ve allowed the government get so far out of control is the real GD issue here.
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