Which side won the last battle of the Civil War.

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Re: Which side won the last battle of the Civil War.

Post by Cloaked Dagger » Wed May 23, 2018 8:06 am

Another point to consider is the south did have representation in Congress. When we left England it was because we had no representation in parliament.

At that time we also had the western territories joining the union as states. Those western states did not have the same established plantation economy and culture the south did and this was likely to lead to the south having a smaller voice in Congress, but they still had and would always have a voice.
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Re: Which side won the last battle of the Civil War.

Post by wolfdog » Wed May 23, 2018 8:19 am

jjk308 wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 7:45 am
Gmountain wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 5:55 pm
Dave P wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 4:10 pm

He's fighting for that bullshit heritage not hate trope that people use to deflect the fact that their great grandparents were traitors, I guess.
Read what was said in the Declaration. If the government isn't meeting your needs, you may need to make another one.

Forget the heritage/hate thing. The South wanted to run things their way, so they said sorry Union- we're out. The Northern states had no right to invade.
First of all they weren't traitors because up until the 14th Amendment of 1868 everyone was a citizen of their state, primarily. Official federal documents pre Civil War stated that "The United States Are..." niot "The United States is..." The 14th Amendment made Americans citizens of the USA and of their state.

And second, there are NO PROVISIONS IN THE CONSTITUTION FOR SECESSION! The South would have had to propose and get ratified an Amendment setting up their separate country. The ruling class of the South refused to follow the law or work out a political solution so instead they illegally rebelled. And got whupped as they deserved. The rebellion was just as inherently STUPID as the Japanese attack on the USA in 1941 because the North was far stronger in industry and manpower while the South, having invested so heavily in slave worked agriculture, couldn't raise enough soldiers or equip them.
Before the war the constitution did not ban succession. The constitution is in place to limit government so if not stated then the government does not have that power.
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Re: Which side won the last battle of the Civil War.

Post by 10MMGary » Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:15 pm

As to the original question "Which side won the last battle of the Civil War." Some say the Reb's won if you count the battle of Palmito Ranch in Texas. Technically I believe it was fought like a month after Gen Lee's surrendered at Appomattox, so was it still a Civil War battle? I believe 100% it was. /:f
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Re: Which side won the last battle of the Civil War.

Post by jjk308 » Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:28 am

wolfdog wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 8:19 am
jjk308 wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 7:45 am
Gmountain wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 5:55 pm
Dave P wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 4:10 pm

He's fighting for that bullshit heritage not hate trope that people use to deflect the fact that their great grandparents were traitors, I guess.
Read what was said in the Declaration. If the government isn't meeting your needs, you may need to make another one.

Forget the heritage/hate thing. The South wanted to run things their way, so they said sorry Union- we're out. The Northern states had no right to invade.
First of all they weren't traitors because up until the 14th Amendment of 1868 everyone was a citizen of their state, primarily. Official federal documents pre Civil War stated that "The United States Are..." not "The United States is..." The 14th Amendment made Americans citizens of the USA and of their state.

And second, there are NO PROVISIONS IN THE CONSTITUTION FOR SECESSION! The South would have had to propose and get ratified an Amendment setting up their separate country. The ruling class of the South refused to follow the law or work out a political solution so instead they illegally rebelled. And got whupped as they deserved. The rebellion was just as inherently STUPID as the Japanese attack on the USA in 1941 because the North was far stronger in industry and manpower while the South, having invested so heavily in slave worked agriculture, couldn't raise enough soldiers or equip them.
Before the war the constitution did not ban succession. The constitution is in place to limit government so if not stated then the government does not have that power.
Wrong! US Constitution, Article IV Section 3. New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new States shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.

Inherent in this article is that states and the territories composing them are within within the power of Congress. Secession not being mentioned in the Constitution the best way of achieving it would be by amendment. Secession by simple majority vote in House and Senate might also be legal, but is somewhat dubious because of its lack of mention in the Constitution.

BTW I'm listening to an audio book of "The Rise And Fall Of The Confederate Government" by Jefferson Davis. He goes through the typical gyrations of Southern apologists and revisionists by claiming that:
1. The Missouri Compromise of 1820 was illegal because Congress had no power to ban slavery anywhere and that was one of the rights reserved to the states by the Constitution.
2. A state - the new ones forming in the West - had no right to ban slavery. He called it an illegal doctrine of "Squatters Rights". Davis seems to have ignored the history of the Northern States all banning slavery by law.
An amazing contradiction in just one chapter of this book. No wonder the South lost. It was led by a delusional fool.
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Re: Which side won the last battle of the Civil War.

Post by g.willikers » Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:03 am

The discussion of the legalities and constitutionality of secession would seem to be a dead end.
Does the issue of secession require any adherence to existing law?
Doesn't the very idea of secession include the rejection of all previous association with the mother country?
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Re: Which side won the last battle of the Civil War.

Post by Cloaked Dagger » Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:28 am

g.willikers wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:03 am
The discussion of the legalities and constitutionality of secession would seem to be a dead end.
Does the issue of secession require any adherence to existing law?
Doesn't the very idea of secession include the rejection of all previous association with the mother country?
Well as I believe I pointed out, I’m sure England considered the succession of the colonies illegal. That’s why they sent an army to try and put down the rebellion. They lost though so that means it wasn’t illegal for us now. On this issue, might makes right.
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Re: Which side won the last battle of the Civil War.

Post by Skoll » Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:50 am

Cloaked Dagger wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:28 am
g.willikers wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:03 am
The discussion of the legalities and constitutionality of secession would seem to be a dead end.
Does the issue of secession require any adherence to existing law?
Doesn't the very idea of secession include the rejection of all previous association with the mother country?
Well as I believe I pointed out, I’m sure England considered the succession of the colonies illegal. That’s why they sent an army to try and put down the rebellion. They lost though so that means it wasn’t illegal for us now. On this issue, might makes right.
Not to be pedantic, but as Starship Troopers (the book) taught us, might always makes right.
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Which side won the last battle of the Civil War.

Post by dammitgriff » Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:52 am

jjk308 wrote:
wolfdog wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 8:19 am
jjk308 wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 7:45 am
Gmountain wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 5:55 pm


Read what was said in the Declaration. If the government isn't meeting your needs, you may need to make another one.

Forget the heritage/hate thing. The South wanted to run things their way, so they said sorry Union- we're out. The Northern states had no right to invade.
First of all they weren't traitors because up until the 14th Amendment of 1868 everyone was a citizen of their state, primarily. Official federal documents pre Civil War stated that "The United States Are..." not "The United States is..." The 14th Amendment made Americans citizens of the USA and of their state.

And second, there are NO PROVISIONS IN THE CONSTITUTION FOR SECESSION! The South would have had to propose and get ratified an Amendment setting up their separate country. The ruling class of the South refused to follow the law or work out a political solution so instead they illegally rebelled. And got whupped as they deserved. The rebellion was just as inherently STUPID as the Japanese attack on the USA in 1941 because the North was far stronger in industry and manpower while the South, having invested so heavily in slave worked agriculture, couldn't raise enough soldiers or equip them.
Before the war the constitution did not ban succession. The constitution is in place to limit government so if not stated then the government does not have that power.
Wrong! US Constitution, Article IV Section 3. New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new States shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.

Inherent in this article is that states and the territories composing them are within within the power of Congress. Secession not being mentioned in the Constitution the best way of achieving it would be by amendment. Secession by simple majority vote in House and Senate might also be legal, but is somewhat dubious because of its lack of mention in the Constitution.

BTW I'm listening to an audio book of "The Rise And Fall Of The Confederate Government" by Jefferson Davis. He goes through the typical gyrations of Southern apologists and revisionists by claiming that:
1. The Missouri Compromise of 1820 was illegal because Congress had no power to ban slavery anywhere and that was one of the rights reserved to the states by the Constitution.
2. A state - the new ones forming in the West - had no right to ban slavery. He called it an illegal doctrine of "Squatters Rights". Davis seems to have ignored the history of the Northern States all banning slavery by law.
An amazing contradiction in just one chapter of this book. No wonder the South lost. It was led by a delusional fool.
Amendments 9 and 10 supersedes Congress, sorry.
While the purpose of the Constitution is to limit the power and scope of our national government, unlimited power is given to the individual states, and, by extension, to the people inhabiting each of the states.
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Last edited by dammitgriff on Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:52 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Which side won the last battle of the Civil War.

Post by dammitgriff » Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:08 pm

Cloaked Dagger wrote:
g.willikers wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:03 am
The discussion of the legalities and constitutionality of secession would seem to be a dead end.
Does the issue of secession require any adherence to existing law?
Doesn't the very idea of secession include the rejection of all previous association with the mother country?
Well as I believe I pointed out, I’m sure England considered the succession of the colonies illegal. That’s why they sent an army to try and put down the rebellion. They lost though so that means it wasn’t illegal for us now. On this issue, might makes right.
Exactly, what good is a doctrine of law when you are powerful enough to ignore it?
We still follow this reality today in global affairs, ignoring iternational law when it does not align with our interests.


R/Griff

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Re: Which side won the last battle of the Civil War.

Post by tector » Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:10 pm

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Re: Which side won the last battle of the Civil War.

Post by jjk308 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:26 am

dammitgriff wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:08 pm
Cloaked Dagger wrote:
g.willikers wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:03 am
The discussion of the legalities and constitutionality of secession would seem to be a dead end.
Does the issue of secession require any adherence to existing law?
Doesn't the very idea of secession include the rejection of all previous association with the mother country?
Well as I believe I pointed out, I’m sure England considered the succession of the colonies illegal. That’s why they sent an army to try and put down the rebellion. They lost though so that means it wasn’t illegal for us now. On this issue, might makes right.
Exactly, what good is a doctrine of law when you are powerful enough to ignore it?
We still follow this reality today in global affairs, ignoring iternational law when it does not align with our interests.


R/Griff
What "International Law"? Unless its been agreed to by the USA and ratified by the Senate we are not a party to it. That includes some big chunks of the Geneva Convention, the entire International Criminal Court and the International Court of Justice, or World Court, almost all UN resolutions of the General Assembly and anything that is an "Executive Agreement" which is just a personal agreement by one US president not binding on anyone else.
All those organizations produce are propaganda for the One Worlders.
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Which side won the last battle of the Civil War.

Post by dammitgriff » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:58 am

Ratified by the senate? What senate? We don’ nee’ no stinkin’ senate!
Name one war declared by the U.S. Congress since WWII.
The executive powers have eclipsed the law.
R/Griff

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