Future of bump fire devices?

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N4KVE
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Future of bump fire devices?

Post by N4KVE » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:06 pm

So it seems that 2 bump stock devices were used in the Las Vegas massacre. Pictures now show 2 AR's with these devices. So will these devices suddenly be classified as "illegal"? I remember when these devices first came out, I asked the store manager if he should stock up, as they worked rather well. He replied "no" he didn't want to buy inventory, only to find out a week later that they were now illegal. Will they be gone? Here is a quote from the NY Times. GARY


The gunman had a device to turn a rifle into a rapid-fire weapon.

Mr. Paddock had multiple semiautomatic rifles, weapons that fire a single round with each pull of the trigger. A fully automatic weapon, like a machine gun, will quickly fire round after round with a single pull of the finger, until the user releases the trigger or empties the magazine.

Fully automatic weapons, tightly regulated by federal law since the 1930s, are much rarer than semiautomatic ones. Military versions of assault rifles often have a setting for fully automatic fire, but the versions made for the civilian market do not.

The rapid fire heard on recordings of Las Vegas shooting suggested a fully automatic weapon, and police officers called it that on radio traffic. But replacing a standard rifle stock, the part that rests against the shoulder, with a bump stock allows a semiautomatic rifle to fire at a rate comparable to a fully automatic rifle — much faster than a human user can pull and release the trigger.

Bump stocks are legal and inexpensive, with some versions advertised for $99.

A standard stock is firmly fixed to the rifle. But a bump stock allows the body of the rifle to slide a short distance back and forth, harnessing the recoil energy of each shot. The shooter does not move the trigger finger; instead, the weapon bounces, or “bumps,” rapidly between shoulder and finger.

In 2013, Senator Dianne Feinstein of California proposed outlawing bump stocks, but Congress has not acted on her proposal. She proposed a ban again on Tuesday.

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Re: Future of bump fire devices?

Post by GunsandHoses » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:33 pm

Better get em while you can cuz they're gonna go bye bye!

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Re: Future of bump fire devices?

Post by Bill2e » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:43 pm

Already going buts on GB......

We all know that the bump stock did nothing to increase the damage, but remember they wont stop until they get them all...

Now i don't how they can LEGALLY ban anything, but that has not stopped them before. However the lawsuits may put slide fire out of business.

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Re: Future of bump fire devices?

Post by Cardboard_killer » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:04 pm

Bill2e wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:43 pm
Already going buts on GB......

We all know that the bump stock did nothing to increase the damage, but remember they wont stop until they get them all...
What do bump stocks do? I admit, I've never heard of them before now.
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Re: Future of bump fire devices?

Post by Gregh181 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:17 pm

This is of course solely my opinion but bump fire stocks are beyond f#;.,/g stupid
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Re: Future of bump fire devices?

Post by Lilwoody » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:17 pm

With a quite a bit of practice they are a whole bunch of fun and can be quite controllable.

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Re: Future of bump fire devices?

Post by N4KVE » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:19 pm

Cardboard_killer wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:04 pm
Bill2e wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:43 pm
Already going buts on GB......

We all know that the bump stock did nothing to increase the damage, but remember they wont stop until they get them all...
What do bump stocks do? I admit, I've never heard of them before now.
The ATF just stated there were 12 bump fire devices in the hotel room. They also stated since they do NOT allow the gun to fire full auto, they are legal by today's laws. What do bump fire stocks do? Watch this semi auto gun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0f7OCnrrpk

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Re: Future of bump fire devices?

Post by Bill2e » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:32 pm

Oh I understand what they do, the point is that he could have fired from a bolt action rifle and the results would have been just as horrible.

Very sad situation.

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Re: Future of bump fire devices?

Post by GunsandHoses » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:44 pm

Bill2e wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:32 pm
Oh I understand what they do, the point is that he could have fired from a bolt action rifle and the results would have been just as horrible.

Very sad situation.
Would not have been the same as the bolt would have to be manually worked after each shot. Wouldn't have done anywhere near the damage!

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Re: Future of bump fire devices?

Post by Rentprop1 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:48 pm

Cant wait till they figure out he shouldered a sig brace so those farking things become illegal too.....lol


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Re: Future of bump fire devices?

Post by 870Mike » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:56 pm

They need to ban rubber bands, too...

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Re: Future of bump fire devices?

Post by REDinFL » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:59 pm

GunsandHoses wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:44 pm
Bill2e wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:32 pm
Oh I understand what they do, the point is that he could have fired from a bolt action rifle and the results would have been just as horrible.

Very sad situation.
Would not have been the same as the bolt would have to be manually worked after each shot. Wouldn't have done anywhere near the damage!
Bolt action, 3 rounds in 8.3 seconds. Let's call it 15 rounds a minute to allow for reloading. 30 minutes - arbitrary as I haven't heard a reliable figure - makes 450 rounds. Since a bolt rifle is a slow and deliberate weapon, more would be aimed, particularly with a telescopic sight, resulting a higher hit percentage.

Not the best argument as the antis would jump on the wagon and scream about those too. I mention the above only to douse some of the hysteria out there.
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Re: Future of bump fire devices?

Post by 870Mike » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:00 pm

Jerry needs to go, too...

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Re: Future of bump fire devices?

Post by 870Mike » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:03 pm

Don't own a slide-fire, but have a few Fostech Echo's...I'm sure they're on someone's sh*t list... :-k

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Re: Future of bump fire devices?

Post by Taco » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:35 pm

Cardboard_killer wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:04 pm
Bill2e wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:43 pm
Already going buts on GB......

We all know that the bump stock did nothing to increase the damage, but remember they wont stop until they get them all...
What do bump stocks do? I admit, I've never heard of them before now.
I tried to explain bump fire to my coworkers... I don't think it went as well as I thought. I'll try again... They came about early to mid last decade.

ATF says that one action of the trigger firing one round is the test for automatic Vs semi. To bump fire, you use the recoil of the round to reset the seer, and you pull the firearm forward to fire again keeping your trigger finger in the same spot. Once you can visualize that we can start going further.

There was something called the Adkins accelerator... Let's not talk about that right now... Ok, later on they came up a stock that was collapsable making the reset and fire again easier and faster. That is what the bump fire stock does. It's not magic, and it goes what the ATF requires, one trigger pull one round. You fire, the rifle recoils backwards, you pull forward with consistent pressure, and your finger at the same location activates the trigger repeatedly. It can get going rather fast, close to full auto fire rate.
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Re: Future of bump fire devices?

Post by 870Mike » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:49 pm

https://www.thetrace.org/2015/11/ar-15-bump-fire-legal/

AR-15 Lovers Are Getting Fully Automatic Thrills with Barely Legal Gadgets

Bump fire devices let black rifles fire hundreds of rounds per minute. They've become hot accessories for the growing tactical weapons set.

BY ALEX YABLON · @ALEXYABLON·November 16, 2015
For some gun enthusiasts, it’s a vision of American paradise.

A thin, 20-something blonde woman named Lisa Jean stands in cutoff jean shorts, a tank top, and sunglasses in the middle of a Nevada desert. In her hands is a black AR-15 rifle loaded with accessories: a forward grip, a flashlight below the barrel, an optical sight, and an odd-looking shoulder stock. With a slight smile she speaks into a camera. “Got my new Bump Fire on. Gonna dry fire it a few times to see where I can find the happy spot.”

Then, instead of pulling her finger back, she pushes on the forward grip. Though the stock stays in place against her shoulder, the rest of the gun slides forward until the trigger goes click.

“That’s the happy spot,” she says. ” Let’s see if I can do it for real now.”

Lisa Jean then pops in a double drum magazine and again slides the gun forward instead of pulling the trigger, letting off a few two- and three-shot bursts. Satisfied, she turns and unloads the rest of her hundred-odd rounds into the burned-out hulk of a minivan. It takes her all of about 12 seconds.

“Whoo!” she shouts.

Though she’s firing the equivalent of hundreds of rounds per minute, Lisa Jean is not, technically, using a machine gun. What allows her AR to shoot that fast is the special stock, made by a company called Bump Fire Systems. The Bump Fire stock is an aftermarket accessory that enables semiautomatic rifle owners to replicate fully automatic fire — while escaping federal restrictions on machine guns. It’s one of a group of similar rifle stocks that are at the cutting edge of the so-called tactical market for weapons, parts, and accessories that turn firearms sold in everyday gun stores into tricked-out weapons resembling the war machines used by Navy SEALs and Special Forces.

Bump Fire stocks and others like them serve gun owners who shoot for thrill and status, not for any practical or sporting purpose. These stocks have lately become the most transgressive, showy gear in a market comprised almost exclusively of transgressive, showy gear. Many experts believe the tactical segment of the gun business has become the chief engine of growth in the industry. That’s largely due to the popularity of the AR-15, the semiautomatic civilian version of the U.S. military’s automatic M-16 rifle. Part of the AR’s appeal is its modular construction, which, more than any other firearm, serves as a platform for accessories and endless tinkering.

Nicholas Leghorn, a gun writer who reviewed the Bump Fire for the pro-gun website The Truth About Guns, told The Trace that he thinks it would appeal most to shooters who “want something to show that they’re the cool guy on the range.” According to Leghorn, that’s one of the main reasons that people buy “black rifles” like the AR-15 in the first place. He compares the rifle to another classic American toy: “The point of the AR-15 is that it’s a Barbie doll for guns,” Leghorn said. Just as Barbie fans need playsets, wardrobes, and cars to maximize their Barbie fun, so AR-15 owners need to customize their rifles to fully convey their rugged self-image.

The Bump Fire stock doesn’t convert semiautomatic rifles to true automatic fire. Rather, it provides an effective means of engaging a gun’s trigger extremely quickly. Instead of pulling back the trigger to fire, the user places his or her finger slightly in front of the trigger and pushes the whole gun forward with steady pressure. The trigger hits the finger and the round goes off. Recoil pushes the gun back, but the shooter’s forward pressure immediately returns the trigger back to the finger, and so the gun fires off another round faster than the blink of an eye.

Though an AR-15 fitted with a Bump Fire stock can fire hundreds of rounds per minute, the ATF found the add-on doesn’t turn a semiautomatic rifle into a machine gun. The devices are just this side of legal.
The thrill of what’s called “bump firing” can be had without any special attachment if the shooter simply doesn’t hold the weapon’s pistol grip, allowing the gun to rattle back and forth after each shot. But this method only works when firing from the hip, so it’s difficult to control. The Bump Fire stock, thanks to its guiding tube, can be shot from the shoulder, making it far more accurate and reliable.

A novice observer watching an AR equipped with one of these stocks go through magazines in seconds might not understand why the distinction matters: automatic or Bump Fire, don’t both fire hundreds of rounds per minute? And aren’t guns that can do that supposed to be illegal? To such questions, Bump Fire gladly provides answers, directing its customers to an exhaustive letter of approval from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, which examined the Bump Fire stock before it entered the market in 2012. It found that the gadget only worked as long as the shooter continuously applied forward pressure on the gun and did not alter its internal function. That means a rifle fitted with an Bump Fire doesn’t become a machine gun, and as a result is not subject to registration and taxes under the 1934 National Firearms Act, nor the 1986 ban on newly manufactured machine guns for the civilian market. The devices are just this side of legal.

The two aforementioned laws made machine guns incredibly expensive and rare, thus heightening their desirability. AR-15s can also be made to fire automatically with simple two-inch devices called drop-in auto sears, but firearms altered with such gadgets must be registered as machine guns in their own right, constraining their supply to the point where the tiny steel rectangles can fetch $10,000 apiece. Civilian-legal automatic M-16s run from $15,000 to $20,000, or about the same price as an original 1959 never-removed-from-box Barbie. By contrast, a Bump Fire stock costs about $99, while similar stocks from Slide Fire Solutions and Fostech go for $200 to $400.

Bump Fire stocks and their competitors are the latest and most effective devices in a line of sometimes infamous gadgets that make automatic firing easier. The most notorious is the Hellfire, a small metal attachment that holds the finger close to the trigger. In 1992, when ATF agents first visited the Branch Davidians’ compound in Waco, Texas, after getting reports the group was making illegally converted fully automatics, David Koresh showed them Hellfires to explain he was acting within the law. In July 1993, Gian Luigi Ferri attached these small devices to two TEC-9 semi-automatic pistols before he killed eight people and wounded six at the offices of a San Francisco law firm. (Hellfire Systems Inc, the maker of the attachment, went bankrupt the following year because of a lawsuit.)

When Senator Dianne Feinstein, a Democract from California, sponsored the early 1990’s assault weapon ban, she cited the San Francisco shooting as one of the reasons the country needed stricter gun control. In 2013, soon after the Sandy Hook Elementary School massacre in Newtown, Connecticut, Feinstein proposed a new assault weapons bill that outlawed bump fire devices or anything else designed to increase a semiautomatic weapon’s rate of fire, but that legislation never went to a vote.

Some bump fire add-ons have, in fact, run afoul of federal regulations. The first to improve on the Hellfire trigger, the Akins Accelerator, modified a semiautomatic Ruger 10-22 rifle. The ATF initially approved the Akins, but it turned out that the inventor, William Akins, had submitted a version to the bureau that worked purely on recoil — and then turned around and sold a different product that used an internal spring to aid the firing process. In 2006, the ATF banned the device, claiming it functioned like a true fully automatic weapon, with a single sustained trigger pull exhausting an entire magazine.

Bump fire enthusiasts on YouTube often laugh when they begin shooting, as if to say, Can you believe we’re getting away with this?
Some experts are puzzled over how newer add-ons like the Bump Fire stock have passed government scrutiny. Robert Farago, who runs The Truth About Guns website, wrote in 2010, with some amazement, that Slide Fire’s SSAR-15 was legal “for the rest of the day, anyway.” He called the company’s disclaimer (which said the device “does not increase the rate of fire” on its own) “disingenuous.”

These stocks are catnip for gun-obsessed YouTubers, a newly prominent group in gun circles. Many have made videos testing out Slide Fire, Bump Fire, or Fostech models, delighted with the results. Shooting one of these devices thumbs a nose at lawmakers like Feinstein. YouTubers often laugh when they begin shooting, as if to say, “Can you believe we’re getting away with this?” Bigshooterist, distinguished by his shaved head and thick-as-chowder New England accent, used a Slide Fire stock to run through a magazine loaded with 29 rounds.

“In the last 25 years that I’ve been working with [machine guns] there hasn’t been anything that really gave you something you would think was close to a full auto,” he said. “Until now.”

He said he was “blown away” with the results. Examining his paper targets, he found “29 rounds, 29 hits, all in the black.” In the words of another well-known online video personality, hickock45, “The darn thing works!”

Rob Southwick, a market analyst for the gun and outdoor industry at Florida-based Southwick Associates, said he believes that bump fire enthusiasts represent “a new kind of customer.” His company found that ARs and their accessories catered mostly to men in their 20s and 30s, for whom black rifles are not a gun they step up to after learning on a .22 – the way a Ford Escort owner might eventually graduate to a Mustang – but instead serve as their first-ever gun purchase. Southwick believes these new shooters, unlike traditional gun buyers, prefer range shooting to hunting or backyard plinking. It’s an altogether more social experience, and thus comes with hierarchies and status symbols. An AR-15, and especially an AR-15 kitted with something like a Bump Fire stock, signals to fellow range goers where its owner stands in the pecking order of coolness and bad-ass-ery.

The other thing motivating the buyers of black rifles is fear. Not so much fear of men in black helicopters coming to take their guns away — though that’s part of it — but, it seems, the fear that they won’t be able to buy an AR-15 before the party is abruptly brought to an end by stricter gun laws. The election of President Barack Obama, a Democratic, neatly correlated with a surge in AR-15 sales — making the “tactical segment” the lone area of growth in the gun industry during Obama’s first year in the White House, according to a 2008 report in the Shooting Wire, a gun industry newsletter. Southwick estimated that since 2010, the military-style rifle and accessory markets have at least doubled in value. In 2014, the market for military rifles was worth $1.4 billion, half of which was due to AR-15 sales. The market for gun parts and accessories, meanwhile, was worth $1 billion last year.

How much Bump Fire and its competitors have benefitted from this boom is hard to tell — none of the companies release sales figures, and requests for comment for this article went unanswered. A cursory glance of the websites of Bump Fire and Fostech found little in the way of marketing efforts, but Slide Fire’s slick web presence suggests it’s trying to cultivate a specific customer base. It markets its products to the self-designated s';t Hits The Fan set, who might appreciate the company’s add-ons should they find themselves besieged by hordes of zombies or post-apocalyptic gangs out of Cormac McCarthy’s The Road. Staged photos show a family of “Preppers” guarding a infant, hiding out in camouflaged tents, and taking positions behind brush. It suggests the near-fully automatic option is a necessity for those “considering the fate of [their] family in the event of a catastrophic situation.”

Some gun experts question the zombie-slaying efficacy of bump firing. In his review of the Bump Fire Systems stock for The Truth About Guns, Leghorn wrote that “the entire concept is a gimmicky toy.”

“There’s nothing you can really use it for,” Leghorn added. “It’s not reliable enough to use in a self-defense situation. It’s not going to give added benefit in a hunting situation.”

Similarly, Southwick was at pains to imagine a real use for bump fire stocks beyond the fun of shooting as many bullets as possible without the hassle of acquiring a true automatic weapon. But bump firing makes for an expensive hobby: online ammo store Lucky Gunner charges $240 for 1,000 rounds of its cheapest .223 caliber bullets, the most common round for AR-15s. If shooters using bump fire stocks can fire between 450 and 900 rounds per minute, as many attest, they could easily blow through $500 worth of ammo in less than five minutes.

With that in mind, Southwick said he sees an opportunity for gun-biz synergy: “The ammunition companies should probably be promoting these.”
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Re: Future of bump fire devices?

Post by cvasqu03 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:10 pm

870Mike wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:56 pm
They need to ban rubber bands, too...
There's already an ATF ruling out there that says that if you tie a loop to both ends of a shoelace and use that in a way to keep firing that trigger, then that shoelace is a machine gun.
=dc


As for the future of bumpfire devices.....the immediate future is that there'll be a run on them and the prices will skyrocket.
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Re: Future of bump fire devices?

Post by 870Mike » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:05 am

cvasqu03 wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:10 pm
870Mike wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:56 pm
They need to ban rubber bands, too...
There's already an ATF ruling out there that says that if you tie a loop to both ends of a shoelace and use that in a way to keep firing that trigger, then that shoelace is a machine gun.
And then there are the instances that can only be classified as downright surreal.

(Former ATF official Robert E. Sanders) noted that ATF once issued a letter ruling saying a 14-inch shoestring was a machine gun because it could be used to convert a semi-automatic rifle into an automatic weapon. The letter was later rescinded.


Source: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/0 ... chine-gun/
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Re: Future of bump fire devices?

Post by 870Mike » Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:16 am

They're getting bid-up on GunBroker to $399, $500+, $600+. #-o
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Re: Future of bump fire devices?

Post by SteyrAUG » Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:35 am

Seen a guy bump fire an M1 Garand by simply hooking his thumb in his belt loop.

Good luck regulating that. Bump fire whatever is stupid s';t for tards to buy. But ban it and people will figure out 12 new and different ways to bump fire just about anything.
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