Selling reloads to shooting friends.

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Tom Burns
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Selling reloads to shooting friends.

Post by Tom Burns » Sun Apr 01, 2007 10:04 pm

I'm a new member to the Florida Shooters Network. Its a great sight for real time information. My retirement has me relocating to FL from NYC (yes, Virginia, there really is a Peoples Republic of the City of New York)sometime May/June. I've been an active shooter in various disiplines for about fifty of my sixty years. I have some reloading equipment and have delved into the practice and theory for more than twenty years. I do not have a lot of practical experience because the lack of time prohibited it and , well, I seemed to always have the income to go premium factory. Anyway, the stuff I do have a chance to reload shoots, looks, burns, and even smells like a milion bucks. Sometimes I sell to a few buddies, but I seemed to get a gazillion offers to purchase reloads. I plan on burnin' a whole lotta powder in Fl before the big sleep and want to set up to do all my own pistol, revolver, rifle and maybe shotgun ammunition.

Hey, before I go further, a word of caution. It's COMPUTERS that are strange it me. I have only been into these Advil dependancy producers for six months. I'm far more afraid of this machine than Sarra, Teddy, Chuck, et.al. together are afraid of my guns!

So, here's the rub. The Good Lord allows me to pursue this burning (no pun intended) desire to shoot everything I reload and I begin in the process to meet and greet some of the shooters in your pages. Suppose I begin to get a little reloading income going. What are the ramifications of this in terms of legality and operational precedures? Do I collect taxes? Get a local/state/federal license? Acquire a business insurance? Register with FDLE? BATFE? Now keep in mind I don't plan to compete with the volume of Federal or Winchester. But I/we shoot thousands and thousands of rounds a year. If I got one active IPSC shooter as a client, its conceivable I could load 5000 rnds. a year, right? Two is 10,000. And so on.

I've begun to surf the websites for information pertaining to this topic but haven't been successful so far, including contacting the NRA. I haven't contacted the Feds yet outside of scanning the BATFE website (initially not much help either). Someday I may email them for direction, but I want to start asking questions at the local/state level.

Anyway, first post: done. I hope to be back. Please advise. Many thanks.

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mjrodney
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Post by mjrodney » Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:15 am

In order to sell reloads that you "manufacture", you need to be federally licensed under 18 USC 923.

I recommend you obtain a copy of Jon H. Gutmacher's book, "Florida Firearms Law, Use & Ownership".

It deals with not only Florida Law, but a lot of the Federal laws and statutes, as well.

http://www.floridafirearmslaw.com/

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birdman
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Post by birdman » Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:06 am

from < http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm >

(F11) Is a license required to engage in the business of selling small arms ammunition? [Back]

No. A license is not required for a dealer in ammunition only, but a manufacturer or an importer of ammunition must be licensed.

[18 U.S.C. 922 (a)(1)(B)]

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Post by flcracker » Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:06 am

Don't forget good liability insurance. One lawsuit could ensure that you're a ward of the State in your final years.
and some rin up hill and down dale, knapping the chucky stanes to pieces wi' hammers, like sae mony road-makers run daft - they say it is to see how the warld was made!

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Post by AirForceShooter » Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:07 am

Where in Fla are you moving?

I'm from NYC too, or used to be.
You're going to love Fla.

AFS
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Post by mjmensale » Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:28 pm

If you're going to be manufacturing for resale, you're going to have to get in bed with the ATF for starters. They may require an actual storefront location as opposed to your kitchen table. I don't know. But if they do, that is more licensing at the local and state levels.

You would be smart to find a good umbrella liability policy. But if you're working on your kitchen table, your homeowner insurer may get a bit upset.

Liability with your customers could become an issue if anything goes wrong with the reloads. Your best customers could become your worst nightmares if the SHTF.

I'm sure there are other things to be concerned with but these came to mind quickly.

And welcome to FSN and Florida! =D>

Moe

ETA - Jon Gutmacher's book is the Florida concealed carry bible but it doesn't get into the questions asked here.
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rug357
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Post by rug357 » Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:33 pm

I reload ammo for my personal comsumption and for family members.
I rarely (almost never) allow people to use my reloaded ammo in their gun but I frequently do allow others to shoot my reloaded ammo in my gun.

There are few people that are not my family members that I reload speciality ammo for but not for payment... usually I get to keep excess components.

I don't sell my ammo or load for others for payment.
Too much liability involved for just few bucks.
YMMV
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Post by glockpacker » Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:24 pm

usually I get to keep excess components.
Rug, leave that part off the internet. That would be construed as payment.

Being a CPA that saw a lot of stuff happen, I would be very nervous selling things that go "bang."
Eric
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(Stolen from Moe without permission... because it's true) Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you. John Steinbeck

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Post by GunnyHiway » Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:29 pm

I never sell my reloads. I load em and can em. When I'm ready to go I get the oldest first for use. Anyone is welcome to shoot my reloads in any of my weapons but not their weapons. I will not shoot anyone elses reloads in my weapons.
I leave nothing to chance, reloading is serious business.
The M14 does my talking !


CRIMSON TIDE !!!

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yodar
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Gunny's Got his head screwed on right

Post by yodar » Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:51 pm

GunnyHiway wrote:I never sell my reloads. I load em and can em. When I'm ready to go I get the oldest first for use. Anyone is welcome to shoot my reloads in any of my weapons but not their weapons. I will not shoot anyone elses reloads in my weapons.
I leave nothing to chance, reloading is serious business.
=======================

I have the same philosophy. My reloads are MINE and set up for MY guns. A friend's gun or a stranger's gun is a big question mark. If my friend wants to shoot reloads, I teach HIM how to reload his own and eat his own mistakes and not foist them off to others.

I remember when my son an I both had CZ 52's (we still do) I didn't know he pinched a box of my reloads and I worried to death till I recovered them because back then there were no published reload data for that cartridge, much less for a cast bullet.

I was EXPERIMENTING and it turns out in light of later published data, they were all reloaded 3 grains high. I ended up with a bent slide, but also an unharmed son.

He has since had three KB's on commercial reloads. (.40 S & W in a SIGMA) HE has learned his lesson, SEVERAL lessons, ectually.



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Post by Toymaker » Sat Apr 07, 2007 6:32 am

I reload for me and a friend of mine. He supplies his own components and gives them to me when I'm doing a particular calibre that we are both useing. I use a limited amount of .357 and he shoots a good amount of .38Sp so we chipped in for the Dillon setup. I have another friend thats big on .44s, which as of know I don't use and if he Wants me to load for him he'll have to buy his own setup.
God helps those that help themselves.

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yodar
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reloading

Post by yodar » Sat Apr 07, 2007 7:30 am

Toymaker wrote:I reload for me and a friend of mine. He supplies his own components and gives them to me when I'm doing a particular calibre that we are both useing. I use a limited amount of .357 and he shoots a good amount of .38Sp so we chipped in for the Dillon setup. I have another friend thats big on .44s, which as of know I don't use and if he Wants me to load for him he'll have to buy his own setup.
I'st setup should be a lee turret and autodisc...I got mine with dies,scales,measure for <$100 at a dealer table and they are still well priced

300 pistol or 7.62 x 51 rounds per hour once you get competent. Then when he decides to get serious, he can get a Dillon with confidence.

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GunnyHiway
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Re: reloading

Post by GunnyHiway » Sat Apr 07, 2007 7:59 am

yodar wrote:300 pistol or 7.62 x 51 rounds per hour once you get competent. Then when he decides to get serious, he can get a Dillon with confidence.

Yodar
I have to load my .308 one round at a time, IMR 4895 will not meter in my Dillon as no extruded powder will consistantly. I use the Dillon for .223 as I use ball powder ( H335 ) in it with excellent results.
My old 1960s Lyman handles the .308 and 30.06 and all extruded powders which I meter out on an electronic scale/trickler.
Time consuming but well worth the results.
The M14 does my talking !


CRIMSON TIDE !!!

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yodar
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4895

Post by yodar » Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:09 am

My 4895, factory made is so short cut you hafta' look at it carefully to see it's extruded. It feeds as well as Hodgdon universal.

If you are using surplus 4895 I see your problem, but there aint no more surplus NOW and the factory made 4895 loaded into my itty bitty swede
6.5 mm necks pours fine from my dillon

Surplus ball powder out there from Accurate should fill your needs

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GunnyHiway
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Post by GunnyHiway » Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:15 am

I just bought another 8# keg of IMR 4895 which is not surplus powder. It will not meter correctly in a Dillon. Weigh about every 3rd charge it throws, I guarantee it's not consistant. Been there done that.
I have used Accurate in the 1990s, OK but I'll stick with my current recipes.
The M14 does my talking !


CRIMSON TIDE !!!

Tom Burns
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Selling reloads to friends.

Post by Tom Burns » Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:43 pm

Many thanks to all for the responses that were most helpful and showed serious concern. I received Gutmacher's book and it consisely mentioned on page 171 answeres to about ten of my questions. I see that there were more than a few people who had questions/misconceptions about what constitutes a business and a liability. I have never had a full time job (excepting 4 years VN service, Army), instead have started and operated four businesses at various times. Always being in business, sole proprietor has awakened me years ago to the fact that services/merchandise in exchange for payment, whether money or barter (including components) spells BUSINESS. And , insurance? Hey, wanna hear some horror stories about how much insurance costs add up to as a contractor in NYC, needing a $4 million general liability, workers compensation, statutory disability, commercial vehicle coverage, etc. Then there's the zoning/ordanance issues for operating this business. Etc,etc,etc.


So that's why I asked because I have in fact been on the purchasing end of reloads many, many times over the years. No, not just anything that seems to look somewhat like ammunition. Just from friends who are equally involved in shooting with me as I have sometimes done with them. Sure, small scale stuff, but there were payments involved. And there were liability issues connected as many of you guys mentioned. How many more of us fit into this catagory of being exposed, albiet low profile, to these issues?

Anyway, with all the information I consumed over the last few weeks, let me just say that when in finally relocate to your beautiful state, don't call me for reloads. I've closed the business before opening it. It currently looks like Boca Raton might be our AO. We're headed back down for 3 or 4 days again this weekend to make a few offers. Even if it doesn't work out, we will end up in the Southeast FL quadrant by June/July this year.
I'd love to meet up with some of ya and hang 'round the line as the new guy.

Incidently, please don't think me rude by not covering responses with immediacy that seems to go hand and hand with this computer topic stuff. We're closing down businesses, packing a household, arranging to get tons o'stuff with cars and cats to FL, and still trying to procure a residence. But the most important step is complete. Got my FL nonresident CCW. It's a little taxing, but we're having a ball.

Again, fellow shooters, thanks for the intel. This has always proven to be the best faternity to be associated with.

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Post by Wulfmann » Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:15 am

Seems GunnyHiway and I think much alike on RLing.
I have used a Dillon for years for 223 and 9MM but gave it back to my brother when I decided I would only shoot factory because it was soooooo cheap a couple years ago.
Guess that idea did not work out!!! =en

I use a Rock Chucker (2) and RCBS drop (also 2 of them) with surplus 4895 for my 308 and some 8MM. I tested the 550 many times with extruded including short cut and it was simply not close enough.
The SC was better only as much as a gr off compared to 2 with long cut but that is not good enough, IMO

As for RL for anyone else. Good lord no. The liability is unthinkable for a private uninsured specifically for it person.
I share load data but even then suggest one starts from the book and work slowly to my finding of a light load as each gun is different.

Just place yourself in a courtroom with a liberal judge and jury and consider how that will play out.

I rest my case!

Wulfmann _:
“A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison

A stovepipe is your rifle flipping you off for using cheap ammo!

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Re: Selling reloads to shooting friends.

Post by The Wildrat » Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:38 pm

You ever think of just moving to W.Virginia?

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Re: Selling reloads to shooting friends.

Post by wjbarricklow » Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:50 pm

I'st setup should be a lee turret and autodisc...I got mine with dies,scales,measure for <$100 at a dealer table and they are still well priced
+1 on that.
...and they think I'm compensating for something?

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Re: Selling reloads to shooting friends.

Post by PCJim9mm » Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:23 pm

catching up on old threads?

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