What Do I Have?

The art of collecting C&R firearms including: Mausers, Mosins, Enfields and others. Got questons on C&R Licenses? Ask here.
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mjmensale
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What Do I Have?

Post by mjmensale » Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:52 pm

This is a pic that Dolfan has posted a couple of times.

Image

Tonight something caught my attention. My dad brought back a few items when he returned from fighting in Italy during WW2. One of them was a bayonet very similar to the one pictured above. For years I couldn't figure out how it could be a bayonet because it appeared that the ring that would go over the barrel (like the M16's M7 bayo) had been cut off. But it seems a ring isn't required, as seen above. BTW, what the hell is holding the front of the bayo to the rifle?

Anyway, as mentioned, this bayo is similar to the one above. The blade (chromed?) is almost 10" long. There is a "squirrel" sitting up on it's rear legs on the left side of the blade near the hilt. Above the squirrel is the word "ORIGINAL" and below is "Elckhorn Solingen" on two lines. At the rear of the handle, on the right side, is a button that activates a catch that I assume locks the rear of the bayo to the rifle.

It comes with a two piece scabbard. A metal piece that holds the bayo and which is in turn held in a leather piece that would go on a belt. There are no markings on the scabbard that I can see.

So, what do I have here? I've been wondering for years exactly what this thing was and what it might mount to. Unfortunately, I don't have any pics of it.
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards. Claire Wolfe

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Re: What Do I Have?

Post by ab4ka » Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:12 pm

sounds like a bayo for a Mauser rifle along with the scabbard and frog. If I'm guessing correctly, there's a slot on the bayo on the rear behind where you would expect a ring to be. That goes over a thing that sticks out of the fore-end of the rifle (I'm not sure what to call it) and snaps in place. Sounds neat, would love to see pics when you can.
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Re: What Do I Have?

Post by mjmensale » Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:34 pm

ab4ka wrote:If I'm guessing correctly, there's a slot on the bayo on the rear behind where you would expect a ring to be. That goes over a thing that sticks out of the fore-end of the rifle (I'm not sure what to call it) and snaps in place.
I just looked at it again. There is a slot at the very rear of the handle, about 2" long. This is where that button is. At the front of the slot is a small hole (about 1/4") with what looks like a rubber plug in it. I tried to push in on the plug but nothing happened and I don't feel like trying to remove it since I don't want to ruin anything.
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards. Claire Wolfe

Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you. John Steinbeck

If you try to take our firearms, we will kill you. Mike Vanderboegh

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Re: What Do I Have?

Post by Jagman » Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:37 pm

Check on this site Moe, does look like a (German) Mauser type with unusual grips, - great looking bayo!
http://www.arms2armor.com/Bayonets/bayonets.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: What Do I Have?

Post by MJLittman » Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:47 pm

I cannot tell for certain without handling the piece or the least seeing some clear photos of it. Regardless, it sounds like you have a German civilian sales Seitengewehr dress bayonet. These were sold to German civil servants as an item of dress wear. These would have been worn by a very wide range of civil servants in the Wiemar and into National Socialist era Germany ranging from firefighters to customs officers. The marking you describe is the brand of the Carl Eickhorn gmbh. Eickhorn used a downward looking squirrel holding a sword as the trademark. Eickhorn was and is one of the premier Solingen blade makers and are known for the high quality of their products.

Couple questions:

1. Does the bayonet locking mechanism work or is it false?
2. If the mechanism is false is the slot to slide the bayonet onto the bayonet lug present or is that false too?
3. Is there any provenance story of where and how this was obtained?
4. Are there any scabbards or knots associated with this bayonet?
5. What is the condition of the chroming, paint, etc?
6. What are the grips made from? Plastic, bone or stag?

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Re: What Do I Have?

Post by MJLittman » Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

mjmensale wrote:
ab4ka wrote:If I'm guessing correctly, there's a slot on the bayo on the rear behind where you would expect a ring to be. That goes over a thing that sticks out of the fore-end of the rifle (I'm not sure what to call it) and snaps in place.
I just looked at it again. There is a slot at the very rear of the handle, about 2" long. This is where that button is. At the front of the slot is a small hole (about 1/4") with what looks like a rubber plug in it. I tried to push in on the plug but nothing happened and I don't feel like trying to remove it since I don't want to ruin anything.

Don't force it. More likely than not there is a false locking mechanism.

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Re: What Do I Have?

Post by mjmensale » Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:28 am

MJLittman wrote:Eickhorn used a downward looking squirrel holding a sword as the trademark.
Yes. The sword is the "I" in Eickhorn.

Couple questions:

1. Does the bayonet locking mechanism work or is it false?
It works. I think there's a spring mechanism in there. You push the button in and a small rectangular piece pops out the left side. This small piece looks like the one in the pic. There's also a small metal "catch" in the slot that moves with the button.

2. If the mechanism is false is the slot to slide the bayonet onto the bayonet lug present or is that false too?
The slot is there.

3. Is there any provenance story of where and how this was obtained?
Dad never explained how/where he obtained these things.

4. Are there any scabbards or knots associated with this bayonet?
Yes, as mentioned above.

5. What is the condition of the chroming, paint, etc?
The leather frog is scuffed up. The metal scabbard has several scratches. The chrome looks pretty good except for some black scuff marks towards the front caused by inserting it in the scabbard I would guess.

6. What are the grips made from? Plastic, bone or stag?
I'm not sure. They aren't like the one pictured. They're black and have a "dimpled" surface all over.
A couple of other items Dad left behind are a knife with a jagged metal handle topped by a German cross (Ithink it's more of a letter opener than something to defend yourself with!) and a JP Sauer & Sohn Model 1913 7.65mm (.32 cal) pistol that won't fire. I had a local smith (The Gynecologist) try to repair it but no luck.
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards. Claire Wolfe

Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you. John Steinbeck

If you try to take our firearms, we will kill you. Mike Vanderboegh

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Re: What Do I Have?

Post by mjmensale » Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:44 am

Jagman wrote:Check on this site Moe, does look like a (German) Mauser type with unusual grips, - great looking bayo!
http://www.arms2armor.com/Bayonets/bayonets.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Jagman.
I found it!
http://www.arms2armor.com/Bayonets/gerdres1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's exactly like the second picture down (chrome blade) with the scabbard and frog.
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards. Claire Wolfe

Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you. John Steinbeck

If you try to take our firearms, we will kill you. Mike Vanderboegh

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Re: What Do I Have?

Post by MJLittman » Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:01 am

Interesting sounding piece. It is almost certainly a civil piece, although they were encountered being worn by professional (ie not draftees) NCOs in the German army as well. These sort of blades are not for combat. These are signs of rank and office and thus were sold on the civil market to low and medium level officials. Remember during the German National Socialist period the entire German society militarized and thus many civil servants whom in the USA we would not expect to be wearing uniforms were doing so at that time in Germany. This was something that was expected to be purchased by the civil servant to complete the uniform. There would have been a range of companies selling these sort of items from relative crap no-name companies to the better, well known ones like Carl Eikhorn. Again, I would have to handle the pieces in hand to say more but it sounds like you have some interesting pieces. Does it have a knot? That is a strip of fabric with two acorn shaped balls hanging off of it that would have wrapped around the scabbard. If so this will give you an indicator of what organization the owner was a member of.

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Re: What Do I Have?

Post by MJLittman » Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:04 am

Oh and about the Sauer m1913. It has been quite some time since I have owned one of these. Again, I would have to handle this to say if it has any special meaning or markings. It is quite possible the bayonet and pistol are related as that is very consistent with what would have been taken off of a medium level, older civil servant at the end of the Reich. Both pieces would have almost certainly been the private property of the former owner.

As to the Sauer not shooting. Does the striker drop when you pull the trigger?

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Re: What Do I Have?

Post by mjmensale » Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:28 am

MJLittman wrote:Does it have a knot?
No knot.
MJLittman wrote:As to the Sauer not shooting. Does the striker drop when you pull the trigger?
Unfortunately, the trigger doesn't function. Neither does what I assume to be the safety lever. Something is broke in there and the Gynecologist guy couldn't find the replacement parts he was looking for.

You could be right about both pieces belonging to the same individual but as I said, dad never related anything about his time in Italy so who knows?
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards. Claire Wolfe

Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you. John Steinbeck

If you try to take our firearms, we will kill you. Mike Vanderboegh

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Re: What Do I Have?

Post by MJLittman » Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:44 am

Do you know anything about his service history? Where he served? Unit?, etc? These items are not consistent with capture in Italy as the Italian fascists wore specific daggers with their uniforms and the pistol would have almost certainly been a Beretta. Again, without knowing much I am guessing that these items MAY have come off a middle or lower level career civil servant inside the Reich at the end of WWII. Customs officials, train personel, baliffs, even school administrators may have worn these items. Remember the civil service expanded dramatically under the National Socialists so these items are not exactly uncommon. Does the Sauer have a holster?

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Re: What Do I Have?

Post by mjmensale » Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:15 pm

Dad was a member of the 211 Field Artillery Battalion which apparently served in Italy, France and Germany. He seperated in November 1945. I found a certificate dated October 1945 stating that he was authorized to retain certain captured enemy equipment, namely the pistol and bayonet. So it now appears that he got these items in Germany and not Italy as I first assumed.
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards. Claire Wolfe

Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you. John Steinbeck

If you try to take our firearms, we will kill you. Mike Vanderboegh

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Re: What Do I Have?

Post by MJLittman » Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:27 pm

That capture paper is crucial. Make certain it is kept in a safe place as it establishes provenance for those items. You might want to consider obtaining some acid free blotter paper. You can obtain this at art supply stores. They may also have some deacidifying spray. Sandwich the document between the acid free paper. Over time and proper storage (no heat, light or humidity) some portion of the paper acids may leach into the acid fee paper. Change the acid free paper every few years and it will lengthen the life of the capture document considerably. If you can find the deacidfying spray use that first before the sandwich treatment.

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Re: What Do I Have?

Post by Jagman » Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:03 pm

Looks like you need one more rifle Moe to match the bayo [smilie=cheers1.gif]

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Re: What Do I Have?

Post by mjmensale » Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:03 pm

mjmensale wrote:...and a JP Sauer & Sohn Model 1913 7.65mm (.32 cal) pistol that won't fire. I had a local smith (The Gynecologist) try to repair it but no luck.
Does anybody know of someone that might be able to actually repair this?
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards. Claire Wolfe

Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you. John Steinbeck

If you try to take our firearms, we will kill you. Mike Vanderboegh

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Sauer Model 1913

Post by WillRuss » Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:26 pm

Moe - don't know of a repair guy, but just in case you haven't seen this, here's a video with just about everything you'd want to know about the Sauer Model 1913. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIDfL68mUUM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It sounds like your safety is somehow frozen in the down position, blocking the trigger. I'd suggest removing the grips to see if something is stuck in the safety or if you can move it with something like a screwdriver. That would allow you to field strip it and get to the root of the problem.
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Re: Sauer Model 1913

Post by mjmensale » Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:23 pm

WillRuss wrote:Moe - don't know of a repair guy, but just in case you haven't seen this, here's a video with just about everything you'd want to know about the Sauer Model 1913. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIDfL68mUUM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That was very interesting! I've now learned that the safety is stuck in the "fire" position, the extra doohickey inside the trigger guard is the slide lock and that mine was probably military issued due to the crown on the end cap.

How does one get in touch with that guy? He may be able to lead me to someone who can repair it but I didn't see any way to email him.
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards. Claire Wolfe

Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you. John Steinbeck

If you try to take our firearms, we will kill you. Mike Vanderboegh

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Re: What Do I Have?

Post by dolfan » Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:36 pm

I'm a little late for the party but MJ is correct. What you have is a dress bayo.

Here are some pics of the bayo mounted on my K-98 and a dress bayo. Sorry for the crappy pics...had to use the flash.

Notice the differences in the scales, the frogs, the hilt/guard, the pommel and of course, the biggest diff is that the battle bayo is blued...the dress is nickle plated. Aside from the finish, the blades are identical.

The blued bayo which I'm calling the "battle bayo" is NAZI stamped, including the scabbard and both are serialized.
The Germans were anal about serializing everything.

The dress bayo is not.

Image

Notice how scuffed up the "battle bayo's" scabbard is:

Image

Both scales are bakelite (sp?). Note the fancy checkering of the dress bayo. The dress' scales are pinned, the battle is attached by screws.
The dress scales are black and somewhat glossy. The battle is a flat brownish color.

Image

The "battle" frog has a strap to secure the bayo and is more "robust":

Image

Note the difference in how the scales wrap around the dress bayo.
Also, the tang of the dress bayo is much thinner steel.

Note the damage to the top of the battle bayo where it contacts the barrel. I assume they were caused by actual firing.
This bayo has seen some action for sure.

Image
Last edited by dolfan on Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What Do I Have?

Post by dolfan » Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:58 pm

Moe, again MJ is correct about the "capture papers"

In addition to the sentimental value (being that it was your Dad's), capture papers add considerable value to any piece.

You'd be well advised to follow MJ's preservation tips....or even having a professional do it.

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