Form 4

Machine guns, SBRs, SBSs, suppressors, destructive devices, AOW (any other weapon)
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TheKernel
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Form 4

Post by TheKernel » Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:10 pm

Submitted March 23rd, 2016
Stamp came in Nov 4th 2016

Man that was a long wait.. i cant imagine what the wait times are now. I have been kicking myself in the ass since the day after I bought it that I didnt get the 7.62 over the 5.56... guess that means I'll have to get another one damnit...

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Re: Form 4

Post by 870Mike » Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:30 pm

Yep...waiting on mine from June and a "do-over" from January(?). Stopped counting... [smilie=012.gif]
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Re: Form 4

Post by FfNJGTFO » Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:32 pm

TheKernel wrote:Submitted March 23rd, 2016
Stamp came in Nov 4th 2016

Man that was a long wait.. i cant imagine what the wait times are now. I have been kicking myself in the ass since the day after I bought it that I didnt get the 7.62 over the 5.56... guess that means I'll have to get another one damnit...
Since I've not yet ventured into the world of NFA items, I'm not aware of how the process works. Do you file the paperwork prior to selecting your NFA item, or must you know which item you'll be buying beforehand, and furnish such things as its serial # on the forms? Let's say this would be for a "full auto" weapon (as opposed to a "can" or SBR). If you have to furnish the item's info. prior to submitting the paperwork, that means that the dealer or transferer has to hold the weapon in inventory until the paperwork comes through. That would seem to be expensive. I gather one would need to leave a deposit for the item, in that case. If you can go shopping after you get the tax stamp and just apply it to the papers you sign when you accept delivery, that would be ideal.

Thanks! [smilie=icon_smile.gif]

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Re: Form 4

Post by 870Mike » Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:46 pm

FfNJGTFO wrote:

1) You know which item you'll be buying beforehand, and furnish such things as its serial # on the forms.

2) Let's say this would be for a "full auto" weapon (as opposed to a "can" or SBR). If you have to furnish the item's info. prior to submitting the paperwork, that means that the dealer or transferer has to hold the weapon in inventory until the paperwork comes through.

3) One would need to leave a deposit for the item (but most likely pay in full).
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Re: Form 4

Post by FfNJGTFO » Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:07 pm

870Mike wrote:
FfNJGTFO wrote:

1) You know which item you'll be buying beforehand, and furnish such things as its serial # on the forms.

2) Let's say this would be for a "full auto" weapon (as opposed to a "can" or SBR). If you have to furnish the item's info. prior to submitting the paperwork, that means that the dealer or transferer has to hold the weapon in inventory until the paperwork comes through.

3) One would need to leave a deposit for the item (but most likely pay in full).
But what happens if the forms are denied by the ATF? Would the dealer refund your money? That's a lot of $$$ (eg. for an M16, say) to have at risk...

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Re: Form 4

Post by 870Mike » Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:21 pm

FfNJGTFO wrote:But what happens if the forms are denied by the ATF? Would the dealer refund your money? That's a lot of $$$ (eg. for an M16, say) to have at risk...
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Re: Form 4

Post by Rentprop1 » Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:53 pm

FfNJGTFO wrote:
But what happens if the forms are denied by the ATF? Would the dealer refund your money? That's a lot of $$$ (eg. for an M16, say) to have at risk...
You lose you $200

As for a refund that depends, usually a dealer will hit you with a huge ass restock fee for taking that item out of salable service for 6 months and having to withdraw and redo all the forms.....what's 20% restock fee on a $25 k gun = $ 5 K ......you better be sure of your background before willing to risk that cake....hell most people don't wanna lose the $200

One of the members here had a buyer back out on a M10 and only kept a couple hundred of the guys deposit, but luckily sold it for a few bucks more.
In the days of the old west a 6 shooter was as common as cell phones are today and just annoying if they go off in a theater.

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Re: Form 4

Post by John K » Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:42 pm

FfNJGTFO wrote: Do you file the paperwork prior to selecting your NFA item, or must you know which item you'll be buying beforehand, and furnish such things as its serial # on the forms?

The tax tamp is for the one-time transfer of a specific; Type, Make, Model, Caliber, and Serial Number. And the item must be in the inventory of a dealer in your state of residence BEFORE the Transfer Form can be submitted to transfer it to you.

Let's say this would be for a "full auto" weapon (as opposed to a "can" or SBR). If you have to furnish the item's info. prior to submitting the paperwork, that means that the dealer or transferer has to hold the weapon in inventory until the paperwork comes through.

Correct

That would seem to be expensive.

Insurance and safes aren't cheap

I gather one would need to leave a deposit for the item, in that case.

Payment in full is usually required upfront. It gets fun when you're buying a transferable from an individual out of state. Then its a$200 transfer (and 3-6 month wait) from them to your dealer, then another $200 and 6-10 month wait to transfer it to you.

Sometimes you can do a 50% non-refundable deposit down, with the balance due when the Form TO your dealer clears, before shipping.


If you can go shopping after you get the tax stamp and just apply it to the papers you sign when you accept delivery, that would be ideal.

Ideal, but not the way the system works

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Re: Form 4

Post by John K » Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:50 pm

TheKernel wrote:Submitted March 23rd, 2016
Stamp came in Nov 4th 2016

Man that was a long wait.. i cant imagine what the wait times are now. I have been kicking myself in the ass since the day after I bought it that I didnt get the 7.62 over the 5.56... guess that means I'll have to get another one damnit...
Congrats! [smilie=cheers1.gif]

Well.... a couple rounds of 7.62x54R bi-metal should open it up [smilie=pdt_xtremez_13.gif]

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Re: Form 4

Post by FfNJGTFO » Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:39 pm

One other question in re: the NFA process.

Say you go ahead and buy the item from your dealer, and they put it "on hold" for you until your form4 paperwork goes through and the tax stamp is issued. If, subsequently, before the paper work comes through, the dealer goes "out of business" or their store is "ripped off" or the "on hold" item is either mistakenly or deliberately "sold" before the transfer is complete, are you as equally SOL as you would be if the paperwork were denied by the ATF?

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Re: Form 4

Post by Rentprop1 » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:22 pm

FfNJGTFO wrote:One other question in re: the NFA process.

Say you go ahead and buy the item from your dealer, and they put it "on hold" for you until your form4 paperwork goes through and the tax stamp is issued. If, subsequently, before the paper work comes through, the dealer goes "out of business" or their store is "ripped off" or the "on hold" item is either mistakenly or deliberately "sold" before the transfer is complete, are you as equally SOL as you would be if the paperwork were denied by the ATF?
well you can cancel the transaction with ATF and get a refund for your $ 200, but depending on the circumstances you getting the money back from the dealer is a civil matter, might as well add alien abduction to your list of possibles because what you listed are pretty rare in most every day circumstances. Most dealers have plans in place so you don't double sell an item, if they go out of business, well thats happened all with different end results....just don't buy from some fly by night place.
In the days of the old west a 6 shooter was as common as cell phones are today and just annoying if they go off in a theater.

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Re: Form 4

Post by FfNJGTFO » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:27 pm

Rentprop1 wrote:
FfNJGTFO wrote:One other question in re: the NFA process.

Say you go ahead and buy the item from your dealer, and they put it "on hold" for you until your form4 paperwork goes through and the tax stamp is issued. If, subsequently, before the paper work comes through, the dealer goes "out of business" or their store is "ripped off" or the "on hold" item is either mistakenly or deliberately "sold" before the transfer is complete, are you as equally SOL as you would be if the paperwork were denied by the ATF?
well you can cancel the transaction with ATF and get a refund for your $ 200, but depending on the circumstances you getting the money back from the dealer is a civil matter, might as well add alien abduction to your list of possibles because what you listed are pretty rare in most every day circumstances. Most dealers have plans in place so you don't double sell an item, if they go out of business, well thats happened all with different end results....just don't buy from some fly by night place.
I figured as much. It's just that 6-8 months (avg. wait time for a form4 I understand) is a long time... lots of things can happen... including an "alien abduction..." [smilie=011.gif]

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Re: Form 4

Post by Rentprop1 » Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:23 pm

You also have a chance to die or get locked up during those 8 months this leaving the dealer with a can he can't dispose of , has to hild on to, store , worry about getting scratched, crushed etc.. ..my safety deposit boxes are $160 per year...if I have to store your can for an extended period of time....bet yo ass you gonna help pay for the storage fees....till you get it sorted out.
In the days of the old west a 6 shooter was as common as cell phones are today and just annoying if they go off in a theater.

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Re: Form 4

Post by FfNJGTFO » Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:14 pm

Rentprop1 wrote:You also have a chance to die or get locked up during those 8 months this leaving the dealer with a can he can't dispose of , has to hild on to, store , worry about getting scratched, crushed etc.. ..my safety deposit boxes are $160 per year...if I have to store your can for an extended period of time....bet yo ass you gonna help pay for the storage fees....till you get it sorted out.
Cans would not be an issue for me... I'm really not into them, just yet. And I probably won't be until the "National Hearing Act" is passed, eliminating their NFA status. But there are a couple of other NFA items that are of interest, at some point, when I can afford them. Just out of curiosity, do you (as a dealer) have to store each item in its own box (I know the end owner does)? I would have not problem paying for storage fees beyond that standard waiting period, but I would hope there would be no such issues extending that period.

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Re: Form 4

Post by Rentprop1 » Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:36 pm

I can get between 16 and 20 cans in their factory boxes inside the file drawer sized safe deposit boxes....with some of the larger boxes, its easier to take the can out and just leave them in the nylon pouches that so many of the top manuf provide with the cans.
I bought another safe to store cans in but somehow I got busy and filled it with customer guns....I just find it easier to store cans off site and go twice a month and pull those customer cans that should be coming back in the near future. I feel safer with them In the bank and the fees for the boxes each year are a lot less that added insurance....
Also keeps the customer from stoping by with his friends to finger phuck his can while its in NFA jail...my policy is come check it out when it arrives....then maybe of we have a shoot or something a conjugal visit, then I put it back....but dont plan to pop in every Friday and visit the damn thing for 7 months....storing them off site prevents the drop by customer.
I found out you can also fit 2 M11's, 4 handguns and 2 complete AR lowers with collapsed stocks in one of those boxes wjen I went on vacation. [smilie=011.gif]

My bank offers lockers for $150 per year...about 6 foot high, 1 foot deep and 1 foot wide ( think gym locker ) but made like a safe deposit box...but they are taken and wait listed. [smilie=012.gif]
In the days of the old west a 6 shooter was as common as cell phones are today and just annoying if they go off in a theater.

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Re: Form 4

Post by John K » Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:10 am

FfNJGTFO wrote: Cans would not be an issue for me... I'm really not into them, just yet. And I probably won't be until the "National Hearing Act" is passed, eliminating their NFA status. But there are a couple of other NFA items that are of interest, at some point, when I can afford them. Just out of curiosity, do you (as a dealer) have to store each item in its own box (I know the end owner does)? I would have not problem paying for storage fees beyond that standard waiting period, but I would hope there would be no such issues extending that period.
The HPA has a snowball's chance in hell of passing, do a little research on what the process is for a bill to pass from submission to signing, then look up "political capital", then look up H.R.1628 and do the math. I've got $100 that says my tax stamp will come back approved (and I'll be enjoying the use of my suppressor) well before the HPA passes =:wvr

There are no regulations regarding the separate storage of Title 2 firearms vs Title 1 for a Dealer. Though the Dealer is civilly liable for any damage/loss to an inventory item from the time of purchase until lawful disposition.

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Re: Form 4

Post by FfNJGTFO » Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:01 am

John K wrote: The HPA has a snowball's chance in hell of passing, do a little research on what the process is for a bill to pass from submission to signing, then look up "political capital", then look up H.R.1628 and do the math.
I'm well aware of the process. What I'm not aware of is how much "political capital" is out there against the bill vs. how much is in support of it.

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Re: Form 4

Post by FfNJGTFO » Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:02 am

Rentprop1 wrote: My bank offers lockers for $150 per year...about 6 foot high, 1 foot deep and 1 foot wide ( think gym locker ) but made like a safe deposit box...but they are taken and wait listed. [smilie=012.gif]
I was wondering how you were going to do the larger NFA items (M16's, Thompsons, etc.)... [smilie=011.gif]

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Re: Form 4

Post by Rentprop1 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:45 am

Im also looking for a used Brinks truck or armored van but you never see them for sale.
In the days of the old west a 6 shooter was as common as cell phones are today and just annoying if they go off in a theater.

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