SBR type questions

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M14man
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SBR type questions

Post by M14man » Thu May 12, 2016 5:43 pm

Question regarding SBR's...
I have a friend that has an M1A1 M1 Carbine. It has a folding stock. It has a regular normal length barrel and I believe it is less than 26" with the stock folded. This gun is legal, correct?

Second question: He also has a Universal type "Enforcer". It has a short barrel, maybe 12" long.
I am aware this is legal. See them for sale. It has a pistol grip stock.

He has told me that it is illegal to swap stocks... That the "Enforcer" would become illegal soon as he put the folding stock on it, or in fact any normal stock. Is this correct?
Would the regular M1 Carbine be legal with the Enforcer stock?

Lot of questions there....what stupid rules....

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Odessaman
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Re: SBR type questions

Post by Odessaman » Thu May 12, 2016 6:23 pm

M14man wrote:Question regarding SBR's...
I have a friend that has an M1A1 M1 Carbine. It has a folding stock. It has a regular normal length barrel and I believe it is less than 26" with the stock folded. This gun is legal, correct?
Yes - long guns with folding or collapsible stocks are measured with the stock in the fully extended position.
Second question: He also has a Universal type "Enforcer". It has a short barrel, maybe 12" long.
I am aware this is legal. See them for sale. It has a pistol grip stock.

He has told me that it is illegal to swap stocks... That the "Enforcer" would become illegal soon as he put the folding stock on it, or in fact any normal stock. Is this correct?
He is correct - as built, the Enforcer is classified as a pistol. So adding any stock that makes it a shoulder fired weapon is just like putting a buttstock and standard buffer tube on an AR pistol with a barrel under 16 inches - it creates an SBR.
Would the regular M1 Carbine be legal with the Enforcer stock?
Not unless the overall length is greater than 26", which I don't think would be the case.
Lot of questions there....what stupid rules....
It's confusing - the questions aren't stupid, but the rules are.
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M14man
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Re: SBR type questions

Post by M14man » Thu May 12, 2016 6:31 pm

Thanks!

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Rentprop1
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Re: SBR type questions

Post by Rentprop1 » Thu May 12, 2016 9:54 pm

I don't think you could put the M1 carbine in the enforcer stock because the M1 carbine is classified as a rifle and by definition has to have a butt stock
In the days of the old west a 6 shooter was as common as cell phones are today and just annoying if they go off in a theater.

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M14man
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Re: SBR type questions

Post by M14man » Thu May 12, 2016 10:02 pm

Rentprop1 wrote:I don't think you could put the M1 carbine in the enforcer stock because the M1 carbine is classified as a rifle and by definition has to have a butt stock
What then of those pistol grip shotguns? Some come with 2 stocks..regular and a pistol grip.
Would it be that the carbine total length would be too short while in the shotguns the lengths are longer due to the longer bbl length?

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Re: SBR type questions

Post by Rentprop1 » Thu May 12, 2016 10:36 pm

I guess

But now your mixing shotgun and rifle ....shotgun by definition has to have a butstock . ..

The PGO ....short shotty greater than 26 overall but must have never had a butstock on it....the models with both a PG and butstock don't qualify to be a PGO
In the days of the old west a 6 shooter was as common as cell phones are today and just annoying if they go off in a theater.

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Racist Infidel
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Re: SBR type questions

Post by Racist Infidel » Fri May 13, 2016 1:49 pm

The M1A1 design predates the '68 GCA and therefore the carbine is 'grandfathered' in.

The measurement is made with the stock folded, measured perpendicular to the bore. At least that's the way ATF tells you to do it when you get your FFL. [smilie=popcorn.gif]

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Re: SBR type questions

Post by 870Mike » Sat May 14, 2016 3:15 pm

"Extreme ends of the weapon"...which leads me to believe stock extended/unfolded:

Page 89: https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2006- ... 479-11.pdf


Dear __________________:

This is in reply to your correspondence which was received by the Firearms Technology Branch, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), on January 30, 2008. In your letter you inquire about the attachment of a folding stock to a pistol having a barrel length of 16 inches or greater.

As background, 27 CFR Sec. 479.11 (Meaning of Terms) states, in part:

The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore.

Based on this description of overall length and its correct measurement, ATF has taken the position that firearms having folding or collapsible stocks are properly measured for overall length with the stock fully extended.

In the situation you present, the attachment of a folding shoulder stock to a pistol having a barrel length of 16 inches or greater would be lawful as long as the overall length of the resulting firearm is at least 26 inches with the stock fully extended. We caution that, because the configuration you have specified results in the manufacture of a rifle, a subsequent reconfiguration of the firearm to a pistol configuration would result in a weapon made from a rifle, which is a weapon controlled by the National Firearms Act (NFA).

We thank you for your inquiry and trust that the foregoing has been responsive.

Sincerely yours,

John R. Spencer
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch
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Re: SBR type questions

Post by Villafuego » Sat May 14, 2016 5:17 pm

Racist Infidel wrote:The M1A1 design predates the '68 GCA and therefore the carbine is 'grandfathered' in.

The measurement is made with the stock folded, measured perpendicular to the bore. At least that's the way ATF tells you to do it when you get your FFL. [smilie=popcorn.gif]

Yup....the M1 and M1A1 was a bit of an "odd bird" for a while.....there was a short period of time where they required a permanently attached muzzle device/extension to meet legal length....I believe it required an additional 2 1/2".....this was before the decision was made to measure OAL with the stock unfolded.

If the stock is not of the "quick detach" type, the OAL measurement is made with the stock extended. If the stock is of the QD type, the OAL measurement is made with it removed.....

A good example of this is why it is completely legal to have a folder on a 16" bbl semi Uzi, but installation of a QD wooden stock would require registration as an SBR (unless you installed a 19" bbl)

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Re: SBR type questions

Post by NorincoKid » Mon May 16, 2016 8:46 am

Rentprop1 wrote:I don't think you could put the M1 carbine in the enforcer stock because the M1 carbine is classified as a rifle and by definition has to have a butt stock
I think it just has to meet the 16" barrel & 26" OAL (or 26.5?) to be good. I dont think a rifle HAS to have a buttstock as long as it meets that criteria.

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