So for the long range shooters out there...

Bolt guns, gas guns and long range shooting tactics.
Post Reply
User avatar
Erik
Life Member
Life Member
Posts: 2616
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2006 4:09 pm
Location: Largo, FL.
Contact:

So for the long range shooters out there...

Post by Erik » Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:38 pm

What qualities should I look for in a scope? I have been talking through email with Armybikos (thank you again so much for all your help [smilie=cheers1.gif] ) and he suggested to ask you guys and see what you thought. I was told a $20 scope is the same as a $3000 S&B up to 600 yards, then after that it really matters. So I need your help. I plan on doing 560 yard shots until I can move further out, all the way to 1000 yards. I do plan on getting into some competition as well. Thank you in advance.

30mm tube or bigger? No 1 inch?
What power magnification?
Are the MOA adjustments more true and accurate with the better scopes?
Are brands with the same specs differ? (I mean does Nikon's with the same specs as Leupolds act the same?)
Fixed or Variable power? If variable, what is the max power you would purchase and why?
Prefer side focus?
M1 turrets or M3 cam system?
What kind of reticule? I was thinking mil-dot. Are their other ones I should consider?
Is an illuminated reticule important? More than likely I will be doing just daytime shooting.
What kind of rings?

Thanks for the replys. I am trying to figure out which features are important to have, and which ones aren't. I don't want to pay for something that I won't ever be able to utilize. Thank you.

Erik
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
DAMN THIS SIGNATURE IS FANCY!
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

glockpacker
Life Member
Life Member
Posts: 6610
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 11:23 pm
Location: Fort Lauderdale

Re: So for the long range shooters out there...

Post by glockpacker » Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:16 pm

8 to 32 X 56mm Precision Benchrest on Nightforce rings. You'll need to mount it on a +20 MOA mount to reach the long distances. If you start with this setup, you'll never need to "graduate" to a "real" scope. You'll be already equipped with it.

I prefer the Precision Benchrest to the NXS for a really good reason... it has 1/8 MOA clicks. I know this because I made the mistake of getting the NXS.

Study the combination of rings and +20 MOA mount. The mount is going to raise the scope, so you won't want to use tall rings. It would put the scope too high over the rifle. You may need the shortest rings to keep the scope low to the stock for good alignment.

http://www.nightforceoptics.com/SCOPES_ ... odels.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Eric
Shooter of 1,000 yards

(Stolen from Moe without permission... because it's true) Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you. John Steinbeck

glockpacker
Life Member
Life Member
Posts: 6610
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 11:23 pm
Location: Fort Lauderdale

Re: So for the long range shooters out there...

Post by glockpacker » Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:25 pm

Reticles? How good are your eyes? If my eyes were great, I'd prefer the NP-1. It's totally clean and concise, without distracting garbage everywhere.

If you need a reticle with more prominent lines in it, the NP-R2 on the right is the better reticle. I changed to this one simply because I can see it. But I've lost points in matches because I was looking at the cross-hatch above or below the actual crosshairs. Bah!

http://www.nightforceoptics.com/RETICLE ... rview.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Eric
Shooter of 1,000 yards

(Stolen from Moe without permission... because it's true) Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you. John Steinbeck

User avatar
mjmensale
Life Member
Life Member
Posts: 9500
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 7:47 am
Location: Palm Beach County

Re: So for the long range shooters out there...

Post by mjmensale » Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:58 pm

Before I get to your questions, let me comment on GP's posts. You need to understand what he's doing with his setup. His quest is to nail the "X" on every shot at each distance in a competition setting, nothing more, nothing less. For his needs, the scope with the most magnification and the finer adjustments works just fine. If that's your primary intention then follow his path. The +20* rail is an almost given regardless of what you want to do. The price difference in flat vs +20 is negligible.

If, however, you want get into more "tactical" type shooting, then 32X and 1/8 moa adjustments will drive you up the wall. Your field of view at 32X will be severely handicapped, the mirage will drive you nuts and I guarantee you that you will eventually lose track of where you are on the elevation dial with 1/8 adjustments.

I am setting up my M14 with a Leupold MK4 M3, 3.5x10x40, Tactical Milling Reticle (hash marks), front focal plane. I've used these scopes in the past and I like them for their simplicity. Elevation adjustment is 1moa and windage is 1/2moa. I can dial to 1,000 yards in one turn of the dial. My goal is to kill (take that any way you want to) the target, period. I don't need to hit the "X" to do that. The "score" doesn't matter to me. And don't make the mistake of thinking that scope is not accurate. 1moa at 600 is 6" (10" at 1,000) which is more than enough to do what I want. I can also drop it to 1/2moa by adjusting between the marks.
What qualities should I look for in a scope?
Buy the best glass you can afford now. It doesn't matter what the cost is, just get the best you can. We can't all (any many won't) pop $3K for an S&B uber scope.
I was told a $20 scope is the same as a $3000 S&B up to 600 yards, then after that it really matters.

Maybe up to the first shot then all bets are off. You want consistency and repeatability in your scope's abilities and a cheap scope will not do it. It would also be nice if your scope held its settings and didn't fall apart if you bumped it or dropped it, which you will eventually do.
I plan on doing 560 yard shots until I can move further out, all the way to 1000 yards. I do plan on getting into some competition as well.
A quality 10X (I'm assuming you're shooting a .308?) will take you out to 1,000 with no problems. 1/4moa adjustments are easier on the brain and the eyes. Making a 1/8moa adjustment and having the bullet strike actually make that adjustment is not something most shooters can accomplish (benchrest shooters excepted).
30mm tube or bigger? No 1 inch?
A 30mm tube will normally allow for greater range of adjustment.
What power magnification?
It depends on what your end game is. If you're chasing "X"s then get higher power. If not, a lower power will give you a wider field of view allowing you to see "other stuff" around your target.
Are the MOA adjustments more true and accurate with the better scopes?
They will be substantially more consistent and repeatable with the better scope. The factory warranty will probably be much better.
Are brands with the same specs differ? (I mean does Nikon's with the same specs as Leupolds act the same?
Theoretically, yes. 1/4 click should be 1/4" at 100 with any scope. Again, repeatability and consistency come with the better scope.
Fixed or Variable power? If variable, what is the max power you would purchase and why?
Variable power scopes offer much better quality today than they did years ago. The max high end depends on what you are doing with it. When I get another bolt gun, it will probably be maxed out at 18-20X.
Prefer side focus?
Yes. There is less chance of disturbing your sight picture and your firing position.
M1 turrets or M3 cam system?
These are propriatary to certain Leupold scopes. If you can live with the coarser adjustments, the M3 can't be beat.
What kind of reticule? I was thinking mil-dot. Are their other ones I should consider?
See GP's post. I've changed from the mil-dot to the tacticle milling reticle because it is less cluttered. The hash marks allow you to see more of your target instead of getting covered by those big dots.
Is an illuminated reticule important? More than likely I will be doing just daytime shooting.
Personal preference.
What kind of rings?
The best you can afford. Don't spend $1K on a scope and $25 for rings. You will pay for your indiscretion eventually. The lower the better, to keep the line of sight closer to the bore center thereby letting you shoot flatter.

Moe
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards. Claire Wolfe

Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you. John Steinbeck

If you try to take our firearms, we will kill you. Mike Vanderboegh

User avatar
arkhangel5
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 491
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:30 pm
Location: Palm Bay

Re: So for the long range shooters out there...

Post by arkhangel5 » Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:11 pm

+1 to what Moe said.

I just got in to the distance shooting game and I was where you are at right now. The only thing I would say about reticles is go try and look at the different ones out there, and if possible see if you can get some time shooting with them. Along the way I have gotten to look thru a few(including GP's). I went with a mil-dot, but I think I would have been better off with a just a regular crosshair reticle, but that's me, haven't looked thru a reticle like Moe's got yet.

Another comment in regards to Moe's opening statement, I went hunting with the same rifle I use in matches. In matches I usually have the magnification up near the max(16x). While hunting, I had it turned all the way down(4x) and in most situations that was still a lot. Sometimes I wished I had more magnification for a match, but at the same time, my lowest power was almost too much for hunting, even at 300yds. So you will have to decide what is important to you in a scope. My scope is a Nikon Monarch 4-16x42 w/mil-dot.

Hope this helps.

SY
Tough times create strong people. Strong people create good times. Good times create weak people. Weak people create tough times.

User avatar
Nicolas
Life Member
Life Member
Posts: 8798
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:26 am
Location: Nottingham - England

Re: So for the long range shooters out there...

Post by Nicolas » Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:52 pm

I just need another day or so then I will be able to show two really good combo's I shoot, awaiting rings for the 6mmBR.

Need to know the following info before adding my 10 cents.

What is your budget, roughly ?

What are your eyes like, good/ fair/ poor/ or ............... Sweep = mole like ? [smilie=011.gif]

User avatar
Erik
Life Member
Life Member
Posts: 2616
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2006 4:09 pm
Location: Largo, FL.
Contact:

Re: So for the long range shooters out there...

Post by Erik » Wed Jan 21, 2009 5:23 pm

Hey guys. Glockpacker, Moe, Arkhangel5, and nicholas thanks for all your replies!
How good are your eyes?
I have 20/20, however things become a little fuzzy at further distances. I think I'm far sighted.
His quest is to nail the "X" on every shot at each distance in a competition setting, nothing more, nothing less.
You are right on. For the time being I am just going to be going to ranges with predetermined distanced stationary targets. I would like to repeatedly make the tightest groups possible. Like you said Moe, you just want to kill the target. I would like to gain the skills and know how to place the bullet exactly where I want, to kill the target.
Sometimes I wished I had more magnification for a match, but at the same time, my lowest power was almost too much for hunting, even at 300yds.
That's what I'm afraid of. I am probably going to do more frequent shooting at a closer range (up to 300 yards), but do want the capability of reaching out to 1000 yards accurately.
What is your budget, roughly ?
I would say roughly $1000. It depends how much of my stuff you guys buy [smilie=011.gif]
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
DAMN THIS SIGNATURE IS FANCY!
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

User avatar
MiamiAttorney
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 914
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:23 pm
Location: North Miami Beach

Re: So for the long range shooters out there...

Post by MiamiAttorney » Wed Jan 21, 2009 5:40 pm

Speaking of that, are you still looking to move that Remington 5R?
"Next to being shot at and missed, nothing is really quite as satisfying as an income tax refund.” — F. J. Raymond, humorist

CVO
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 1605
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:19 pm
Location: Odessa

Re: So for the long range shooters out there...

Post by CVO » Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:06 pm

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthr ... =19&page=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Stop the looting. Start the prosecuting.

User avatar
Nicolas
Life Member
Life Member
Posts: 8798
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:26 am
Location: Nottingham - England

Re: So for the long range shooters out there...

Post by Nicolas » Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:24 am

$1k puts you in Burris, Leupold, Ziess, Meopta price range. Have yourself a good look at 'all' the products from these folks and if you fancy any put the models forward and we may have them on our kit already.

Scopes are a very personal choice but people do get carried away sometimes on the tacticool side of things, me included.

My list:

H.S precision custom .308 has a Mk 4 8.5 - 25 x 50 LRT ILM Mil-Dot

Ruger M77-Mk 2 standard Stutzen .243 has a German S&B 8 x 56 fixed power hunting scope

Remi 700 VS custom .223 has a Ziess conquest 6.5 - 20 x 50 no 4 fine ret

RPA custom 6mmBR has a Nightforce 12-42 x 56 NSX Mil-Dot

3 x rimfires 1x Leupold 1 x Burris 1 x Hawkeye

User avatar
flcracker
Life Member
Life Member
Posts: 5655
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:55 am
Location: Safety Harbor

Re: So for the long range shooters out there...

Post by flcracker » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:12 am

Santa is starting to count his easter eggs before they hatch..... I'm getting close to ordering a Mk IV to go on my .338 Win Mag for my next elk hunt - once all the grandmonkeys are adequately spoiled at Christmas, Santa is going to buy himself a playpretty.

Primary application will be shooting mule deer, elk, and Barbary sheep at distances out to 600 yds (that's the longest range I have access to locally, and I can consistently bang the 10-inch gong at 600 yds with my 7mm Rem Mag topped with a Mil-dot 4.5-14x50mm M1 Mk IV.

The main questions I have right now....

1) Illuminated reticle vs. front focal plane? It's either one or the other with Leupold - they don't offer both in the same scope, even through their custom shop. The low-light advantage of the illuminated reticle are obvious. What would the advantages be to having a front focal plane scope instead?

2) M1, M2, or M3 turrets? M1 = 1/4 MOA windage and elevation; M2 = 1/2 MOA windage and elevation; M3 = 1/2 MOA windage, 1 MOA elevation. Moe - what are your reasons for recommending the M3 over the other options?

4) Mil-dot or TMR reticle? I'm more familiar with Mil-dot (LOVE the Mil-dot Master!) but I can definitely see the advantage of hash marks instead of dots for hunting.

Thanks for the input!

=:bye =:bye , and =:bye [smilie=cheers1.gif] !!
and some rin up hill and down dale, knapping the chucky stanes to pieces wi' hammers, like sae mony road-makers run daft - they say it is to see how the warld was made!

User avatar
mjmensale
Life Member
Life Member
Posts: 9500
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 7:47 am
Location: Palm Beach County

Re: So for the long range shooters out there...

Post by mjmensale » Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:09 pm

1) Illuminated reticle vs. front focal plane? It's either one or the other with Leupold - they don't offer both in the same scope, even through their custom shop. The low-light advantage of the illuminated reticle are obvious. What would the advantages be to having a front focal plane scope instead?
The primary advantage of a FFP scope is the ability to accurately measure at different magnifications. As the magnification is increased, the reticle increases in size also. You will get the same distance calculation for a 6' man whether the scope is on 3X or 15X because the subtension remains the same at different magnifications.

If your primary use is going to be for hunting, I'd probably go with an illuminated reticle SFP scope and use a laser range finder for measurements. The reticle will look bolder on lower powers giving you some advantages in heavy cover. If heavy cover isn't an issue then maybe the FFP scope would be better.
2) M1, M2, or M3 turrets? M1 = 1/4 MOA windage and elevation; M2 = 1/2 MOA windage and elevation; M3 = 1/2 MOA windage, 1 MOA elevation. Moe - what are your reasons for recommending the M3 over the other options?
Since I don't shoot for "Xs" the M3 dials provide enough adjustment to hit the target. Don't forget that they can be set halfway between clicks.
4) Mil-dot or TMR reticle? I'm more familiar with Mil-dot (LOVE the Mil-dot Master!) but I can definitely see the advantage of hash marks instead of dots for hunting.
The TMR reticle is basically a cleaned up mildot reticle. Hash marks instead of dots. But I believe the subtention is the same and you should be able to use your mil-dot master with a TMR reticle.
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards. Claire Wolfe

Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you. John Steinbeck

If you try to take our firearms, we will kill you. Mike Vanderboegh

User avatar
Nicolas
Life Member
Life Member
Posts: 8798
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:26 am
Location: Nottingham - England

Re: So for the long range shooters out there...

Post by Nicolas » Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:54 pm

Flcracker : Before you hand over your hard earned 'funny money' let us have a little chat first [smilie=pdt_xtremez_13.gif]

Keep in mind the distances you will be hunting at, weather conditions, how far you will be humping the gear, what do you need rather than what do you want.

IMHO I would say for an all round practical/hunting rifle scope at a sensible price check out the Zeiss Duralyt 3 - 12 x 50 ( ret 6 )
retail in te uk for £665.00 also consider the Zeiss conquest 6-20 with a mil-dot.

User avatar
Erik
Life Member
Life Member
Posts: 2616
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2006 4:09 pm
Location: Largo, FL.
Contact:

Re: So for the long range shooters out there...

Post by Erik » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:11 pm

flcracker wrote:The main questions I have right now....

1) Illuminated reticle vs. front focal plane? It's either one or the other with Leupold - they don't offer both in the same scope, even through their custom shop. The low-light advantage of the illuminated reticle are obvious. What would the advantages be to having a front focal plane scope instead?

2) M1, M2, or M3 turrets? M1 = 1/4 MOA windage and elevation; M2 = 1/2 MOA windage and elevation; M3 = 1/2 MOA windage, 1 MOA elevation. Moe - what are your reasons for recommending the M3 over the other options?

4) Mil-dot or TMR reticle? I'm more familiar with Mil-dot (LOVE the Mil-dot Master!) but I can definitely see the advantage of hash marks instead of dots for hunting.

Thanks for the input!

=:bye =:bye , and =:bye [smilie=cheers1.gif] !!
Moe answered your questions right on, but I'll try to add on.

1) Along with what Moe said with the FFP scopes people generally like to run the scopes at a lower power to increase their FOV, however when you run FFP scopes at a low power, like 3x for instance, it can get a little busy and hard to decipher the mil reading. Not a huge deal because you can crank the power up but just be aware of that if you are getting a low starting powered scope.

2) If you are doing a lot of hunting then the M3 would be great. Also at 1/2 MOA compared to 1/4 that's a lot less of dialing (spinning turret), and easier to keep track of where you are IMO.

3) Yes you can use the TMR with the mil dot master.

I must say there is a lot of great info here for scope selection. Maybe this could possibly be a sticky. It's amazing the difference of my knowledge base of scopes from a year ago. I can't believe this thread is a year old, but nonetheless great info!
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
DAMN THIS SIGNATURE IS FANCY!
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

User avatar
Erik
Life Member
Life Member
Posts: 2616
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2006 4:09 pm
Location: Largo, FL.
Contact:

Re: So for the long range shooters out there...

Post by Erik » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:12 pm

On a funny side note here I am starting this thread a year ago and now today I'm giving advice in it...LOL [smilie=011.gif]
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
DAMN THIS SIGNATURE IS FANCY!
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

Post Reply