Santose Improved 50/200 Battle Sight Zero

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Santose Improved 50/200 Battle Sight Zero

Post by mjmensale » Mon Sep 22, 2003 5:04 pm

Do any of you with AR15s/M16s use the Santose Improved Battle Sight Zero? I have my A2 rifles and now the M4 carbine set up like this. When you consider that most firefights occur within 200 yards, this is a great setup for those irons. You do use your irons, don't you? [smilie=bigsmile.gif]

**********************************************
Courtesy the Maryland AR15 Shooters Site
http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15Sh ... tzero.msnw

An Improved Battlesight Zero for the M4 Carbine and M16A2 Rifle

1. Current Army/Marine Corps battlesight zero and it's procedures are well described in TM9-1005-319-10, the M16/M4 operator's manual. A recent copy of this manual is available for download at old.ar15.com/books. Procedures in the manual will not be repeated here.

2. The current 300 meter battlesight zero is a function of the sights on the rifle and I personally find it shoots too high for the vast majority of combat targets, including the Army's qualification ranges. The procedure listed here takes better advantage of the flat trajectory of these rifles as well as the use of civilian ranges, which are seldom surveyed in meters.

3. When zeroed at 200 meters, a distance twice that of normal combat engagements, these rifles have a very flat trajectory that is less then 2" from line of sight at all intermediate distances; a distance that's smaller than the normal dispersion of arsenal or factory loaded ammunition. This tiny trajectory arc allows very precise shooting out to 250 meters where the bullet is only 2" below line of sight.

4. A 200 meter zero has the happy coincidence of an initial trajectory cross-over at 50 yards, a distance available on almost all civilian ranges including many indoor ranges. This makes it easy to achieve a 200 meter battlesight zero without recourse to surveying your own range. If 200 meters is available you can fine-tune the zero at the real distance. And should when you get the chance.

5. The lowest sight setting, however, on these sights is 300 meters so the sight needs to be modified to preserve the markings on the sight (despite the fact that no one ever sets a range on these in the real world other than a USMC range). The sight needs to be set to bottom out at 8/3 -2 clicks. This will be the new 200-meter setting.

A. Flip the rear sight back to the unmarked aperture. This will reveal a hole in the top of the handle.

B. Rotate the sight wheel all the way down. Will probably be exactly at 8/3 (6/3). Don't force it down.

C. Using a 1/16" Allen wrench loosen the screw (under the revealed hole) in the sight wheel 3 full turns. Leave the wrench in the screw.

D. Rotate the bottom half of the sight wheel two clicks clockwise. This will raise the sight body if you look at it while you're turning it.

E. Tighten the Allen screw, remove the wrench, and confirm the sight bottoms out at 2 clicks BELOW 8/3. If not repeat the procedure until it's right.

6. Battlesight the rifle per the -10 with the following exceptions:

A. Sight should be at 8/3 -2 clicks, that is, all the way down, not up a click. Please note removable handle sights are marked 6/3 (rather than 8/3); also some are in ‘half-clicks’ as well. There should be 3 clicks between 3 and 4 on the knob. If there are 6 clicks then the sight needs to be set at –4 clicks (instead of –2).

B. Small aperture, nose to firing handle weld.

C. Distance is 50 yards.

D. Point of aim should be point of impact of bullet.


7. Remember you're adjusting the FRONT SIGHT for elevation, not the rear, and that each click is about 1/2" (actually a little more) at 50 yards. You won't get it closer than that. Don't frustrate yourself trying.

8. You're done. Leave the sight in this position for 99% of your shooting.

9. If you have to shoot targets you KNOW are 300 meters away or more, just click to the right number on the sight.

10. If you're patrolling set the sight to 8/3 and snap the aperture forward to 0-2. This will provide the same trajectory as above but with a larger, easier to see thru rear sight. Use this setting if you also have the M68 mounted as it's quicker to transition to if the sight fails.

11. If you have an M68 CCO (Aimpoint CompM-XD) optical sight battlesight it to 50/200 as well. You can shoot to 300 meters by merely holding "over a dot."

12. This battlesight zero is valid to 300 meters for both the M16A2 and M4 Carbines and their AR15 sisters. It's valid with any ammunition that approaches the specs for M193 (55gr) or M855 (62g) Ball ammunition. It works for both rifles and carbines due to the offsetting influence of higher muzzle velocity in the rifle being offset by the longer sight radius that moves bullet strike less per click. This is battlesight, not X-ring shooting!

13. This battlesight zero does not reflect the doctrine of the US Armed Forces, however, it reflects the personal use of these weapons in combat and in training for over 34 years.

14. Comments to: Lt. Colonel Chuck Santose (santose@compuserve.com).

Original document: 990104

Copyright 1999, 2000. All rights reserved.
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards. Claire Wolfe

Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you. John Steinbeck

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Re: Santose Improved 50/200 Battle Sight Zero

Post by footlongcuban » Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:17 am

Iron sights??? is that the little flip-up thingy that gets in the way of my Eotech?? [smilie=011.gif]

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Re: Santose Improved 50/200 Battle Sight Zero

Post by mrqueue » Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:20 am

Is this what the link above used to point to? http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_18/328143_.html
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Re: Santose Improved 50/200 Battle Sight Zero

Post by mjmensale » Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:36 am

mrqueue wrote:Is this what the link above used to point to? http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_18/328143_.html
No it's not. These are not the same thing! LtC Santose's article is for a 50/250 meter point blank combat zero. It's for killing people quickly and efficiently without messing with the sights within normal engagement ranges. The ar15.com article is for a 100 yard target zero. Those assholes can f/;k up a wet dream if they aren't supervised. The only thing useful at the ar15 link is the pictures which give a better visual understanding of the adjustments.

The original link went to the old Maryland ar15 site, not ar15.com. I don't even know if the Maryland board is still around.
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards. Claire Wolfe

Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you. John Steinbeck

If you try to take our firearms, we will kill you. Mike Vanderboegh

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Re: Santose Improved 50/200 Battle Sight Zero

Post by m2arms » Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:41 am

ive used this on mechanical BDC sights like sigs and HK's it works great. they also state to do the 30meter/300meter zero, but seems a bit too much. im better at hold under at 100meters then hold over. so it is great, nice info for the AR/M4 sights.

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Re: Santose Improved 50/200 Battle Sight Zero

Post by yodamer » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:15 pm

I understand the reasoning and the setup, have any idea how this will play out on my 16" mid length carbine. Will poa/poi work out the same at those distances? I won't get to the range for a week or so to test it.
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Re: Santose Improved 50/200 Battle Sight Zero

Post by mjmensale » Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:36 am

Read #6 and #12.
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards. Claire Wolfe

Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you. John Steinbeck

If you try to take our firearms, we will kill you. Mike Vanderboegh

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Re: Santose Improved 50/200 Battle Sight Zero

Post by yodamer » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:57 am

I understood #6 & #12, just didn't know if having my front sight base farther forward than most carbines would affect poa/poi with this setup. I just put together a mid length rifle kit in 5.56 and slapped on a 6/3 detachable A2 I had laying around. I set it up the way you described (bottomed out at 6/3 - 4 clicks for my small ap 50 - 200 zero)

I will post results after I get to go shooting.
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Re: Santose Improved 50/200 Battle Sight Zero

Post by Cloaked Dagger » Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:41 am

Is it possible to do something like this with a red-dot sight? I ask because part of the procedure is to adjust where the "bottom" of the range adjustment is on the rear sight. I presume the reason that is done is to correct for the point of impact at point of aim being at roughly 50/200 yards vs 25/300 yards so that the 3 on the range adjustment is still at 300 yards, 4 still at 400, etc. or am I misinterpreting that? Red-dots also have a range adjustment knob do they not? If you sight at 50 yards instead of 25 yards will that not affect the accuracy of that adjustment and require compensation? Maybe I am misunderstanding something, I have never shot at anything past 100 yards, there just aren't enough long range ranges, so always leave my knob set to the bottom on my irons. I have my irons on improved battle sights but am thinking of getting a red-dot so I want to know if this applies at all to them.

EDIT: After doing some googling and reading it appears that red-dots don't have bullet-drop adjustments. A few have knob elevation adjustments but it would require counting clicks and calculating MOAs. So for long ranges you would either want to use your irons, be very good with your hold overs, or have a magnified sight like an ACOG or something similar.
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Re: Santose Improved 50/200 Battle Sight Zero

Post by better2have&notneed » Tue Jan 05, 2016 9:07 pm

I was gonna wait until April 2019 to comment, but couldn't do it... [smilie=011.gif]
My Eotech on my 12" 5.56 AR is zeroed at 100 yards suppressed. What ever the red dot is on, I'm hitting it. Of course it is not magnified so the dot is covering 6" of a bullseye at 100 yards....with my poor vision, corrected with contacts makes the ring/dot a little blurry. The blur makes the dot a little larger ....with glasses the dot is crisp. But I don't wear glasses except a little at home. At 200 yards the dot would be covering a larger area...
If I was going to shoot more than 100 yards I'd swap the Eotech with a 4-12 I got laying around. Or get the bolt gun out.
My irons are zeroed at 100 yards also.
With the suppressor off, my POI is a little off.

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Re: Santose Improved 50/200 Battle Sight Zero

Post by Rentprop1 » Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:18 pm

better2have&notneed wrote:I was gonna wait until April 2019 to comment, but couldn't do it... [smilie=011.gif]

don't forget that dot is covering 12 inches at 200, good thing someone looked at the date
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Re: Santose Improved 50/200 Battle Sight Zero

Post by Cloaked Dagger » Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:12 pm

Rentprop1 wrote:
better2have&notneed wrote:I was gonna wait until April 2019 to comment, but couldn't do it... [smilie=011.gif]

don't forget that dot is covering 12 inches at 200, good thing someone looked at the date
Yeah, but this is a sticky so it's always on top and the forum shows when there was a new post in the tread.

How large is the dot on an EOTech in MOA? I was planning on getting a 2 MOA reflex red-dot when I get one, that should cover 4 inches at 200 yards and 6 inches at 300 if I understand the math correctly.
Last edited by Cloaked Dagger on Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Santose Improved 50/200 Battle Sight Zero

Post by Rentprop1 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:13 pm

Cloaked Dagger wrote:
Yeah, but this is a sticky so it's always on top and the forum shows when there was a new post in the tread.
seeing that you have been gone for the last couple of years, you should just ckick the box that says " mark all Forums read " that way you will not bump any more REALLY OLD topics [smilie=011.gif]
In the days of the old west a 6 shooter was as common as cell phones are today and just annoying if they go off in a theater.

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Re: Santose Improved 50/200 Battle Sight Zero

Post by Cloaked Dagger » Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:16 pm

Rentprop1 wrote:
Cloaked Dagger wrote:
Yeah, but this is a sticky so it's always on top and the forum shows when there was a new post in the tread.
seeing that you have been gone for the last couple of years, you should just ckick the box that says " mark all Forums read " that way you will not bump any more REALLY OLD topics [smilie=011.gif]
I had already done that, I meant other people could see a post here. It's a sticky so it can't really be bumped, it's already on top of all the regular topics.
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Re: Santose Improved 50/200 Battle Sight Zero

Post by better2have&notneed » Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:39 pm

Cloaked Dagger wrote:
Rentprop1 wrote:
better2have&notneed wrote:I was gonna wait until April 2019 to comment, but couldn't do it... [smilie=011.gif]

don't forget that dot is covering 12 inches at 200, good thing someone looked at the date
How large is the dot on an EOTech in MOA? I was planning on getting a 2 MOA reflex red-dot when I get one, that should cover 4 inches at 200 yards and 6 inches at 300 if I understand the math correctly.
I believe mine is 1 moa dot and 65 moa ring. I suggest a Google search on the model you're considering purchasing for reticle info.
I've never done moa calculations, so I can't help you there. You'd just have to measure out the distance, and see what the dot covers at 100, 200, etc on a something like a 12" bullseye.

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Re: Santose Improved 50/200 Battle Sight Zero

Post by flcracker » Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:25 pm

better2have&notneed wrote: You'd just have to measure out the distance, and see what the dot covers at 100, 200, etc on a something like a 12" bullseye.
Ummmm..... Doesn't 1moa = 1 moa = 1moa at ANY distance?

Approximately 1" @ 100yds, 2" @ 200 yds, 6" @ 600yds, etc?

:-k
and some rin up hill and down dale, knapping the chucky stanes to pieces wi' hammers, like sae mony road-makers run daft - they say it is to see how the warld was made!

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Re: Santose Improved 50/200 Battle Sight Zero

Post by better2have&notneed » Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:31 pm

better2have&notneed wrote: My Eotech on my 12" 5.56 AR is zeroed at 100 yards suppressed. What ever the red dot is on, I'm hitting it. Of course it is not magnified so the dot is covering 6" of a bullseye at 100 yards....with my poor vision, corrected with contacts makes the ring/dot a little blurry. The blur makes the dot a little larger ....with glasses the dot is crisp. But I don't wear glasses except a little at home. At 200 yards the dot would be covering a larger area...
better2have&notneed wrote:
Cloaked Dagger wrote:
How large is the dot on an EOTech in MOA? I was planning on getting a 2 MOA reflex red-dot when I get one, that should cover 4 inches at 200 yards and 6 inches at 300 if I understand the math correctly.
I believe mine is 1 moa dot and 65 moa ring. I suggest a Google search on the model you're considering purchasing for reticle info.
I've never done moa calculations, so I can't help you there. You'd just have to measure out the distance, and see what the dot covers at 100, 200, etc on a something like a 12" bullseye.
flcracker wrote:
better2have&notneed wrote: You'd just have to measure out the distance, and see what the dot covers at 100, 200, etc on a something like a 12" bullseye.
Ummmm..... Doesn't 1moa = 1 moa = 1moa at ANY distance?

Approximately 1" @ 100yds, 2" @ 200 yds, 6" @ 600yds, etc?

:-k
Dear Mr. Cracker, My experience with my Eotechs and contacts is that the dot blurs and covers more than one inch of target at 100 yards. I have heard of others wearing contacts say the 65 moa ring looks like a "flaming hula hoop" ....which is what it looks like to me. I assume that everyone's eyes see a little different, so suggesting a real life test for an individual to see how much the dot covers at certain distances seemed like a plausible suggestion.

I have no problem admitting to my limited knowledge of moa which consists of two tidbits: moa means minute of angle, and AK's shoot mob (minute of barn).
I will educate myself on the subject more in the near future beginning with:
Doesn't 1moa = 1 moa = 1moa at ANY distance?
Approximately 1" @ 100yds, 2" @ 200 yds, 6" @ 600yds, etc

Thank you and have a blessed day. [smilie=cheers1.gif]

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Re: Santose Improved 50/200 Battle Sight Zero

Post by flcracker » Thu Jan 07, 2016 1:18 am

Dear Mr. better2have&notneed:
suggesting a real life test for an individual to see how much the dot covers at certain distances seemed like a plausible suggestion.
.

This is a waste of ammo and time, in my humble opinion.

You are free to disagree, but my freaky old high school math teacher Mr. Fink would prove you wrong in about 1 minute or less, without using a calculator - just chalk on the blackboard.

The circumference/coverage of the dot is simply multiplied by the distance. 1" @ 100 yds = 10" @ 1000 yds. Etc.

It doesnt matter whether the center dot is 1 moa or 100 moa. The geometry is the same. If the dot covers 1 moa at 100 yds, it covers 1 moa at any distance. 100 moa means 100" @ 100 yds, 400 " @ 400 yds. You can do all the "at distance" shooting you want, but after a day of shooting at known distances, I am of the opinion that all you will prove is that the ancient Greeks were correct in their math.

If it covers 4 minutes of angle, that means that it covers 4 moa at any distance.

4" @ 100, 8" @ 200, 16" @ 400, etc.

If it covers 6 moa, then @ 100 yds = 6", @ 200 yds it covers 12". @ 400 yds = 24".

Please Google it. http://nssf.org/video/facts/MOA.cfm

I am near sighted and I have astigmatism. I wear contacts or glasses just to get out of bed, much less to drive or shoot. It makes no difference, except for the blur. A minute of angle is a minute of angle, regardless of the distance.

If your dot covers 1.36" @ 100 yds, you can rest assured that it covers 2.72" @ 200 yds, and 8.16" @ 600 yds and 13.6" @ 1000 yds, even if you never have the opportunity to verify it at a known distance range. So, a 100 yd range will give you all the information you need to know regarding what the dot covers at ANY known distance.

Google it. Or take a physics or geometry class.

If you know what the circumference/coverage of the center dot is, you don't even need to go shooting to know what it covers at any distance.
and some rin up hill and down dale, knapping the chucky stanes to pieces wi' hammers, like sae mony road-makers run daft - they say it is to see how the warld was made!

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Re: Santose Improved 50/200 Battle Sight Zero

Post by better2have&notneed » Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:54 am

Waste of time?? Opinions vary.
Waste of ammo?? I said "see how much the dot covers"...nothing about live fire.

I do now have a better understanding of moa, thank you.

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Re: Santose Improved 50/200 Battle Sight Zero

Post by flcracker » Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:04 am

[smilie=cheers1.gif]
and some rin up hill and down dale, knapping the chucky stanes to pieces wi' hammers, like sae mony road-makers run daft - they say it is to see how the warld was made!

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